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TheMorlock
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
i know poor jooz they may now do whatever they want including annexing any adjacent territories to expand their gift-of-a-country




Syria makes me think of our own civil war - what if Russia came and helped the confederates? Or UK/Germany/etc. Hay you guys need a regime change, which is why half your country is rebelling! They must be right so let's meddle with your politics, which we know very little about! At the time if UK or Germany DID intervene, it could have easily changed the course of history. It was close anyway and american army, on either side, was a huge joke at the time. Foreign military officials have likened it to "men running through the woods with sticks" after casual observation.

A people deserve their own government. If enough of them agree there is not much the government can do.

Example - Russia - soldiers fired artillery at the government building. Gorby got the message and announced reconstruction. China - becoming a world leader in a number of areas. USA - we told UK to fuck off, for better or for worse. Yet here we have countries like Saudi Arabia screaming that Syria needs a new government and a democracy - yet they themselves don't let women drive or attend sporting events. Point is let people run their own fucking country.


The brits were supporting the south. Thats why the north pretended it was a slave issue and not a power grab issue. Because it made the brits have to stop backing the south or the british citizens would throw a fit.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:49 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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[H]ard|On
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Your argument blows dog scrotum. Ever hear of this stuff called "oil"? It's kind of a factor in our interest in the Middle East.

Ever realize that BY FAR most of our oil comes form north america?

It's about everything at once - oil, control in the middle east, israel, HalliBurton, the whole nine yards. When governments do things it's usually for more than one reason.

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The brits were supporting the south. Thats why the north pretended it was a slave issue and not a power grab issue. Because it made the brits have to stop backing the south or the british citizens would throw a fit.

The civil war was specifically about slavery, but in general it was about control as I understand it. Either way, yes people should figure their own shit out.

Didn't we learn anything in Vietnam?
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:03 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Ever realize that most of our oil comes form north america?

It's about everything at once - oil, control in the middle east, israel, the whole nine yards. When governments do things it's usually for more than one reason.



The civil war was specifically about slavery, but in general it was about control as I understand it. Either way, yes people should figure their own shit out.

Didn't we learn anything in Vietnam?

No, the civil war was not about slavery at all. Some of the northern states still held slaves at the start of the war. It was about Power. The north had a higher population and was using it to push laws that put the southern states at a disadvantage. The north was industrializing and using child labor the south had vast tracts of good growing land and used slaves instead of children. South wanted to count slaves as population to even thing out. North said no, property cant be counted as citizens but we will let you count 5 as 1 just to be nice. (ratio stated for demonstration purposes only and may not reflect actual ratio)

Didn't you learn anything about pulling your head out of your ass?
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:08 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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No, the civil war was not about slavery at all. Some of the northern states still held slaves at the start of the war. It was about Power. The north had a higher population and was using it to push laws that put the southern states at a disadvantage. The north was industrializing and using child labor the south had vast tracts of good growing land and used slaves instead of children. Didn't you learn anything about pulling your head out of your ass?

Okay laws like what?

Abolishing slavery?


...
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:10 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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For the record I think the south should have been excused and allowed to continue whatever they desired with or without forced labor. Texas should secede. So should CA.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:11 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Okay laws like what?

Abolishing slavery?


...

No, like I said the NORTH still had slaves and the slave holding states that sided with the north were assured they could keep their slaves.

You could not make a law abolishing slavery. It was guaranteed in the constitution that slavery would be legal in states joining the US that were already slave states and that adjoining states had to respect the slave states property rights and return escaped slaves.

It would require an amendment. Emancipation proclamation was illegal.



Pull your fucking head out of your ass.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:14 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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No, like I said the NORTH still had slaves and the slave holding states that sided with the north were assured they could keep their slaves.

You could not make a law abolishing slavery. It was guaranteed in the constitution that slavery would be legal in states joining the US that were already slave states and that adjoining states had to respect the slave states property rights and return escaped slaves.

It would require an amendment. Emancipation proclamation was illegal.



Pull your fucking head out of your ass.


It was illegal and then it wasn't. I get that it was about power but the major wedge issue was slavery. Ergo it was about slavery.

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In response to the election of Abraham Lincoln as President of the United States, 11 southern slave states declared their secession from the United States and formed the Confederate States of America ("the Confederacy"); the other 25 states supported the federal government ("the Union"). After four years of warfare, mostly within the Southern states, the Confederacy surrendered and slavery was outlawed everywhere in the nation.

They were afraid of Lincoln - why? Because of his stance on slavery.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:22 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Full blown cranial rectosis.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:25 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Full blown you got nothing else to say
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:23 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:02 AM TUT RAGE!!! is offline  
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And Iraq, Iran, etc...

Funny how so many people can be "wrong."
So many Muslims you mean.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:42 AM AllUranusBelong2Me! is offline  
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Ever realize that BY FAR most of our oil comes form north america?

It's about everything at once - oil, control in the middle east, israel, HalliBurton, the whole nine yards. When governments do things it's usually for more than one reason.
We care about "controlling the ME" because of oil. Oil is the primary mover out there. Nobody would give a fuck except for the economic necessity of controlling the oil supply. It's a desolate patch of sand with no other significance, no people, no real economy outside of the oil.

It doesn't matter where we get our oil, it's a global commodity and securing supply from the ME keeps prices stable. The Halliburton angle only came up because of years of manipulation in Iraq/Iran; the conspiracy angle could have worked for any other country on Earth. Israel is some level of a factor, they're why we care about Egypt, but it's a distant second to the oil for most of our actions there.
Old 02-29-2012, 11:21 AM Gibonius is offline  
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It would require an amendment. Emancipation proclamation was illegal.

The Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the Confederate states IIRC, so it wasn't "illegal" just symbolic only. The Confed states wouldn't have been covered under the Constitution at that point, since they weren't part of the country, but Lincoln wouldn't have had the legal authority to issue edicts there either.
Old 02-29-2012, 11:23 AM Gibonius is offline  
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We care about "controlling the ME" because of oil. Oil is the primary mover out there. Nobody would give a fuck except for the economic necessity of controlling the oil supply. It's a desolate patch of sand with no other significance, no people, no real economy outside of the oil.

It doesn't matter where we get our oil, it's a global commodity and securing supply from the ME keeps prices stable. The Halliburton angle only came up because of years of manipulation in Iraq/Iran; the conspiracy angle could have worked for any other country on Earth. Israel is some level of a factor, they're why we care about Egypt, but it's a distant second to the oil for most of our actions there.

I can understand that. How much control did we end up having over the oil itself?

Also do you know anything about the Libyan oil fields? I remember reading something about taking over all those after outing Gaddafi.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:50 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Hopefully we invade, then i'll get to finally deploy.

and then die
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