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topcat989
 
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Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Well, I wouldn't exactly argue capitalism was born when the US was born, but I guess some uptight puritans would want to argue against that (not referring to you by any means)
edit: and rather, what I meant by that was that some people are obviously excluded in a cute phrase like "capitalism has worked very well until about now", try living in africa or some other (neo)colonial shithole

you say that as if africa wasn't a shithole before "the white man"
Old 03-11-2012, 08:00 PM topcat989 is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by Jack's raging erection View Post
But is it the system or the morals of the people in the system? Capitalism worked very well until about now. What changed? The people in the system did. It keeps going through in waves. I suspect something to the effect of antitrust movements is in the future. All of these mergers are happening, and someone at some point is going to have a lot of market share to screw people with.

For who and when did it work well? If we consider modern capitalism to begin with the industrial revolution then most workers in the 19th century had pretty terrible lives and farm labor was preferred by most of the population. Especially early on it was the urban poor and farmers dislocated by land consolidation that worked in manufacturing/mining and only in the 20th century (after labor laws, unionization, and technological progress) did the situation change. Prosperity in the West relied heavily on its exploitation of the rest of the world (direct ownership and colonialism, or exploitation of cheap labor). Capitalism was considered a failure by many after WWI and the great depression leading to the growth of socialism and fascism. In the US the average workers situation improved greatly after WWII due to specific historical circumstances (namely global centralization of capital into the US, capitalist fears of socialist revolutions within 1st world nations, strong unions). Of course the US and other Western nations never stopped exploiting or invading third world nations to ensure capitalisms survival.

When capitalism needed to continually grow and the end of any fear of socialism, the absurd modern situation was developed in which 1st world nations self cannibalized their own industry in order to better exploit their own workers. Raw materials from exploited workers from across the globe get shipped into Asia (and the West) so that manufacturers can ship them to the 1st world where increasingly the population is divided into the upper classes who can benefit from global capitalism and the rest of the population who survive on low income low benefits jobs.

I don't think we can say capitalism has really been good for most people, even though standards of living have overall increased for world as a whole from technological progress.
I think many Americans get a nostalgic and narrow view of the 40's-70's and believe as the beneficiarys of such a system as it then existed that capitalism is the best or at least the necessary system for economic prosperity (and therefore also the most moral).

Last edited by Patriotic Eagle; 03-11-2012 at 11:05 PM..
Old 03-11-2012, 10:53 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
fruitbats like Patriotic Eagle have "someday a real Communist system (or whatever the fuck he calls his ideology) will get implemented." Seems like a fairy tale to me, I'm more interested in trying to see how to fix the problems in the overall productive system we have.

No one believes theres going to be a socialist revolution anytime soon or that it would magically cure societies problems (as clearly it didn't before). Criticizing capitalism (or any ideology/system) isn't directly advocating for another system, it just lets us analyze and come up with solutions to them. Nice to know that you're Mad though.
Old 03-11-2012, 11:03 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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The dipshit factor is strong.







Are you fucking kidding? It's straight out of the social sciences. Human beings can relate directly and give a shit about only so many people. For the really highly social people they can relate to about 30 people max. Most cant get over 10, and your aspie ass probably cant even relate well to one. With no direct sympathy for more than that most "Everybody Is Totaly Equal and deserve the Same Exact Slice of The Pie" systems break down starting at 50 people Anyone outside your immediate circle of friends is considered OTHER and others just dont deserve as much as they are getting so we will just take that tiny bit more than we let them have.

Your dipshit factor is off the charts.
Wow, really makes you think.
Old 03-11-2012, 11:13 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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you say that as if africa wasn't a shithole before "the white man"

It wasn't worse off than anywhere else in the world.
Old 03-11-2012, 11:17 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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The dipshit factor is strong.







Are you fucking kidding? It's straight out of the social sciences. Human beings can relate directly and give a shit about only so many people. For the really highly social people they can relate to about 30 people max. Most cant get over 10, and your aspie ass probably cant even relate well to one. With no direct sympathy for more than that most "Everybody Is Totaly Equal and deserve the Same Exact Slice of The Pie" systems break down starting at 50 people Anyone outside your immediate circle of friends is considered OTHER and others just dont deserve as much as they are getting so we will just take that tiny bit more than we let them have.

Your dipshit factor is off the charts.

This is the piss poor attitude that killed capitalism as we knew it.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:27 PM Jack's raging erection is offline  
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So you have no reply to that eh? That sort of imperialism was over by the early 20th century and barely hanging on then.....and in any case it was over before even my grandparents were born. I never said that Imperialism was ok while Communism is bad...I don't know where you're getting that from. Maybe the voices in your head?

No I thought it was genuinely, absolutely hilarious you'd talk about international things like communism and capitalism and start excusing yourself for not being belgian

it's mindbogglingly hilarious
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:06 AM Straw Man is offline  
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you say that as if africa wasn't a shithole before "the white man"
This is a profoundly american comment. Lets not even get into the underlying ocean of racism since you love to get offended by it like the little bitch you are, perhaps it'd be more fitting for an american like yourself to talk about freedom, and how it pertains to others. But, I guess since you've constantly proven your brain damage, I guess you take no objections to enslaving entire continents depending on how valuable you find it regardless of anything else.
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:09 AM Straw Man is offline  
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No? Capitalism is an economic system, it's not intrinsically tied to colonialism or imperialism. The Soviets were imperialist as hell and I certainly wouldn't say that communism is automatically imperialist.
It is tied. (neo)colonialism is a purely profit-based system. It's maximizing profit, if anything. Profit first, rights second. The only thing different from straight forward imperialism seems to be that in a true capitalist manner, the actual exploitation is outsourced to corporations.

Capitalism is an economic system, most people really do consider it an ideological and "ethical" system though? Thats why the capitalist system never fails, it's just the little details that make it "less capitalistic" that make it fail. Thats why you have people talking about marxism and socialism when it comes to government subsidizing banks as an example. It doesn't have anything to do with either one, though (unless you want to assume it's for the common good, and that is a stretch aswell).

Yes, soviets were imperialistic. For that point to be an argument you'd kind of have to find someone that finds the soviet system to be communistic. Coincidentally, people argue there's no pure capitalism. Perhaps so. Doesn't seem to be a talking point when people label dictatorships as communism...
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Are there any options that have a demonstrated case better than capitalism? There are certainly systemic improvements that could be made, exploiting the undeveloped world less high among them, but I've never seen anything that would lead me to think anything else could replace the base tenants of capitalism and be effective.
What do you want to measure this with?
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:20 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:09 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
No one believes theres going to be a socialist revolution anytime soon or that it would magically cure societies problems (as clearly it didn't before). Criticizing capitalism (or any ideology/system) isn't directly advocating for another system, it just lets us analyze and come up with solutions to them. Nice to know that you're Mad though.

I can't recall you ever actually arguing for solutions with any clarity, just generally criticizing capitalism in extraordinarily broad terms. Pretty much the same in my eyes as the libertopians, but from the extreme other side of the issue. Neither is very interesting.
Old 03-12-2012, 10:47 AM Gibonius is offline  
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bob and weave bob and weave

quart of vodka for breakfast, as usual?
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:41 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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It is tied. (neo)colonialism is a purely profit-based system. It's maximizing profit, if anything. Profit first, rights second. The only thing different from straight forward imperialism seems to be that in a true capitalist manner, the actual exploitation is outsourced to corporations.
It's certainly related to capitalism, but it's not an intrinsic consequence. We don't need to scrap "capitalism" to remove that sort of abuse.
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Yes, soviets were imperialistic. For that point to be an argument you'd kind of have to find someone that finds the soviet system to be communistic. Coincidentally, people argue there's no pure capitalism. Perhaps so. Doesn't seem to be a talking point when people label dictatorships as communism...
"Communism" is the only implemented alternative to capitalism, so that's about what we're left with if we want to talk about demonstrated options. Can't really be helped that it was a severely imperfect implementation.
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What do you want to measure this with?
Overall improvements in quality of life sounds reasonable if relatively hard to quantify.
Old 03-12-2012, 02:02 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Straw Man
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It's certainly related to capitalism, but it's not an intrinsic consequence. We don't need to scrap "capitalism" to remove that sort of abuse.
How is it not an intrinsic consequence? Especially after stating capitalism is an economic system and that alone...profit over people means inherent abuse of people.
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"Communism" is the only implemented alternative to capitalism, so that's about what we're left with if we want to talk about demonstrated options. Can't really be helped that it was a severely imperfect implementation.
Plenty of other forms, some failed some succesful, some driven extinct. Sounds like working implemented alternatives revolve around survival of the fittest?

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Overall improvements in quality of life sounds reasonable if relatively hard to quantify.
Those are also improved by issues not related to communism or capitalism in a strict sense (if one wants to only consider the two). Innovations in medicine, agriculture etc. etc.

As a rather provocative example, when russia gave up their spin of communist dictatorship and instead went for their current capitalist dictatorship, seems life expectancy has gone severely down. Seems the overall measurement people really want to use is consumption. I don't like that
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:22 PM Straw Man is offline  
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How is it not an intrinsic consequence? Especially after stating capitalism is an economic system and that alone...profit over people means inherent abuse of people.
Capitalism automatically means invading and subjugating weaker foreign groups? Seems like a hard position to support.

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Plenty of other forms, some failed some succesful, some driven extinct. Sounds like working implemented alternatives revolve around survival of the fittest?
Like what, exactly?
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As a rather provocative example, when russia gave up their spin of communist dictatorship and instead went for their current capitalist dictatorship, seems life expectancy has gone severely down. Seems the overall measurement people really want to use is consumption. I don't like that
Considering we have plenty of examples of capitalist systems working a lot better than Russia, I think the only meaning we can draw from that is "modern Russia's leadership sucks." Obviously capitalism is not a universal panacea, but the costs of scrapping it would be huge and we would need a solution worth the risk (especially when imperfect implementation of the alternative would be likely).
Old 03-12-2012, 03:31 PM Gibonius is offline  
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