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teh_rapist
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirocyl44us View Post
LOL

Yeah, I'm sure Iran is enriching large quantities of uranium in secret bunkers for scientific research. Give me a break.

Did you actually read what I said? Key part: OF COURSE Iran is running a weapons program, I didn't disagree with that for a second. All I did was point to the fact that one cannot simply state: 20% enrichment is, by itself, a clear indication of a weapons program. Because it is not, because 20% enrichment is required in a lot of places (like research reactors) that have nothing to do with weapons or with breeding.

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Originally Posted by sirocyl44us View Post
The NPT is clear on what Iran can and can't do and they are in flagrant violation of it.
Absolutely. No disagreement there.

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Originally Posted by sirocyl44us View Post
Iran doesn't need to build a cutting edge research reactor.
"Need" is a fairly meaningless term here. If one would like to have a, for example, medical isotopes facility (something that, by the way, is a huge issue for the States, which has to buy most of their medical isotopes from Canada), then yes, you actually do *need* a strong research reactor, and 20% enrichment. Now, does any specific country *need* such program? Well, one can say that no, they do not. Unlike food and water, medicine as a whole is actually fairly optional, as are specific parts of it.

Let me restate, that I am not arguing that Iran is running a medical isotopes program, only that the assessment that they don't need a research reactor to run one.

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Originally Posted by sirocyl44us View Post
If they need to generate power they can do it with uranium enriched to far less than 20%.
This is *partially* correct. It is true that most LWRs, particularly the ones in once-through cycles, run on <5% enriched UOX fuel. However, there also are excellent technical reasons to increase the enrichment if one plans to, for example, use the fuel more efficiently (as in, burn more U-238), due to the way the neutron spectrum changes when enrichment is changed.

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What they are doing is trying to hit a major milestone on the way to the 85-90% enrichment needed for a weapon.

This is true. However, again, you have to remember 20% is not actually a milestone. It is a fairly arbitrary limit set on civilian research reactors in the US and in most of the world. I myself operated a reactor like that. But 20% material is in no way more useful for a weapon than 90%.

Let me repeat though - I am not questioning that they have a weapons program going. They in all likelihood do.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:13 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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[H]ard|On
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Originally Posted by Jas101 View Post
nice post.

didnt read it.

youre a tool.

It takes a person with two working brain hemispheres to read that, so don't feel too badly.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:13 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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You fuckers need to listen to the_rapist, the smartest person on the subject here.

But no. I find it not surprising that the same pussies who fear the world and whine about their absolute need to stock up on firearms, then go and fear the world and whine about how others shouldn't have any right to do so.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:16 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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joemama
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Okay so according to you "winning" areas is fair and square. So why can't Iran win some? Israel didn't just stop at defending their land, they took the next step. And the next and one more after that.

We can do all the same things against Korea and Pakistan as we can against Iran We're just being selectively uneven about it.

Also please tell me some of these crazy things Iran has done. Who decides they are the craziest country? Are they crazier than we are? How many countries are they occupying - how many military bases do they have all over the god damn world?




Nuclear bomb =/= ICBM

Koreans don't have a delivery system for example. They can't even hit the coast of Florida unless they bring it on a boat or a long range bomber.

If you're afraid of Iran but not afraid of Korea you're measurably ignorant and/or retarded. Personally I am not that deep into either category so i am not afraid of either country.

Wrong hands - lol. And then what are they going to do? Smuggle a nuclear device inside their butthole into New York or something? We have pretty good airport security and terrorist assholes aren't much larger than yours.
So threats are only measured by what can and can't hit the continental U.S.? Newsflash...a detonation of a modern thermo-nuke anywhere outside of a controlled underground test is going to have effects far beyond the blast radius...both physical and political.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:21 PM joemama is offline  
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So threats are only measured by what can and can't hit the continental U.S.? Newsflash...a detonation of a modern thermo-nuke anywhere outside of a controlled underground test is going to have effects far beyond the blast radius...both physical and political.

Okay so how many have we blown up at sea and in Nevada?

How many has Korea blown up and where?

What in Iran's history specifically bothers you? All countries have attacked other countries at some point. Most people agree that MAD between the USSR and USA was a good thing and prevented large-scale global conflict rather than created it. Peace in the middle east is not possible if the US keeps vetoing all Israel resolutions and we continue our unilateral support of all their actions. Can you not see why the Arabs are pissed off? Instead of being unfair, perhaps we should try being fair.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:35 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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If the government of Pakistan were about to fall to Islamic radicals could we afford to not do anything about it?

I never said that.

I said that Pakistan already has nukes so there's nothing feasible we can do to get rid of them. Conversely, we can try to prevent Iran from developing nukes in the first place.
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:03 PM 5ive is offline  
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I never said that.

I said that Pakistan already has nukes so there's nothing feasible we can do to get rid of them. Conversely, we can try to prevent Iran from developing nukes in the first place.
I agree, but I have yet to see anyone even try to make a convincing argument for just playing hands off..
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:10 PM joemama is offline  
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Israel is an Arab country now? If you're talking about the USS Liberty....that was done while Israel was at war, and was either a mistake or a commander gone rogue. In any case Israel had to pay millions to the families of the sailors killed, as well as the U.S. govt for damage to the ship. Do you really think the Israeli government is dumb enough to pick a fight with the U.S.?

What was the excuse when they were caught red-handed trying to blow up American targets in Egypt to trick the US in to war against Egypt?
Old 03-03-2012, 03:10 PM SamFarber is offline  
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What was the excuse when they were caught red-handed trying to blow up American targets in Egypt to trick the US in to war against Egypt?
I don't know, and I'm not a big fan of Israel or trying to defend all their actions...but what does this have to do with anything? Even if Israel didn't exist it wouldn't be a good idea for Iran to have nukes..

Still waiting for someone to spell out why it would be a good idea..

...





..
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:53 PM joemama is offline  
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teh_rapist
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirocyl44us View Post
In fact, getting to 20% enrichment is by far the hardest part of all of this.

This is incorrect. There are really two reasons for why 20% is a significant number:

1. It is the current limit set internationally for power and research reactors (other than the ones still licensed to use HEU fuel, like MITR or ATR in the States). Those currently licensed, at least in the states, are in the process of switching to 19% fuel.

2. When electromagnetic diffusion (also known as calutrons) was used for enrichment (i.e. Manhattan project), the process was separated into several stages. The first stage was thermal diffusion, and enriched from 0.7% (natural uranium) to 0.86%. The next stages involved gaseous diffusion to 7% (K-25 facility), and electromagnetically-assisted diffusion in calutrons (Y-12 facility). Now, the first and second-stage calutrons (I think called alpha- and beta-calutrons) were between 7% and 20%, and 20% and 90%, respectively.
But again, that is THROUGH GASEOUS DIFFUSION. Thing is, while the US and France (USEC and Areva, respectively) still use this technology - it is pretty much obsolete. Most countries (Netherlands-Germany-UK through Urenco, Russia through TENEX) enrich using something called Zippe centrifuges (i.e. centrifuge cascade enrichment) - which, by the way, was the design smuggled into Pakistan by Amir Khan through Urenco. Thing is, centrifuge cascades, unlike gaseous (assisted or unassisted) diffusion processes, do NOT have this boundary at 20% that the calutron enrichment facilities did. Therefore, for Iran (which, like most countries, is using centrifuge cascades), 20% is not a technically significant number.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:02 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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Rapist with his sword of facts slices through the

I knew I posted for a reason - I'm actually learning stuff now. Aside of brilliant gems such as "they are a crazy country" it appears they are simply trying to keep up with the world. Naturally Israelis hate the idea and with equal predictability we consequently invade and occupy another country.

I sincerely hope we don't - maybe UN can say no. Alternatively I hope Obama is only entertaining those voters who are scared of the world and believe we should always be a "judeo-christian nation" - he can't possibly be afraid of Iran.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:25 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
Rapist with his sword of facts slices through the

I knew I posted for a reason - I'm actually learning stuff now. Aside of brilliant gems such as "they are a crazy country" it appears they are simply trying to keep up with the world. Naturally Israelis hate the idea and with equal predictability we consequently invade and occupy another country.

I sincerely hope we don't - maybe UN can say no. Alternatively I hope Obama is only entertaining those voters who are scared of the world and believe we should always be a "judeo-christian nation" - he can't possibly be afraid of Iran.
did you read nothing he said?

For energy purposes, theres no need for uranium higher than 20%
Old 03-03-2012, 05:26 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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I don't know, and I'm not a big fan of Israel or trying to defend all their actions...but what does this have to do with anything? Even if Israel didn't exist it wouldn't be a good idea for Iran to have nukes..

Still waiting for someone to spell out why it would be a good idea..

...





..

Because there's no reason for black people to ride in the front of the bus... except this stupid concept called EQUALITY. I guess sand niqqers in the desert shouldn't have the right to do the same things we white people get to do. Or even other sand niqqers in the desert which we choose to like because they killed Jesus and got hated on by Nazis... (actually I still don't know why)
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:31 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Quote:
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did you read nothing he said?

For energy purposes, theres no need for uranium higher than 20%

Did YOU read anything he wrote?

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Originally Posted by teh_rapist View Post

Also worth noting that 20%, while still low for many reactors, is nowhere near the ballpark that a weapon needs.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:33 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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teh_rapist
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
did you read nothing he said?

For energy purposes, theres no need for uranium higher than 20%

Well, remember:

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Originally Posted by teh_rapist View Post
...Power reactors, research reactors, isotope reactors, naval reactors, and breeder reactors are all different things, and most of them require higher than 5% enrichment...

There are good technical reasons related to efficiency to drive it higher actually. Medical isotope production being the biggest one. Materials testing (for civilian purposes) is another big one. In general, it's a lot harder to get a high local flux with LEU and 20% Uranium than with HEU.

There is an excellent reason why the MITR (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) or the ATR (Idaho National Laboratory) are not so hot on the idea of reducing their enrichment. And have been taking their time doing so. Hell, when I just arrived on the scene, kids at MIT were already defending PhDs working exclusively on the MITR conversion. As of right now, they are one of the very few places in the world that can do A LOT of tests than 20% facilities simply cannot, and to keep those reactors as nationally and internationally significant requires some very advanced design, and still sacrifices will be made. HEU is just flat out better, it's that simple.

Then there is also the issue of breeding (much easier with HEU), which, besides weapons applications, again provides a way to burn a hell of a lot more of the otherwise-useless U-238 that the once-through cycle (that US employs) burns quite inefficiently.

This is not to say that you NEED higher than 20% to get an LWR critical - you don't, 5% is enough. But there are excellent reasons to go higher.
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