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dio
 
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Whats wrong with the Tea Party?

I notice for some people, and in some discussion groups the term 'Tea Party' has become synonymous with something really bad and ridiculous and I don't understand why the Tea Party has gotten this status.

Admittedly I am not extremely familiar with what all the Tea Party has done and I have not followed news concerning them. I've only read over some things on the web and wikipedia about them.

It seems like they are radical paleoconservative/libertarian types and wikipedia lists their main principles as:
Identify constitutionality of every new law
Reject emissions trading
Demand a balanced federal budget
Simplify the tax system
Audit federal government agencies for waste and constitutionality
Limit annual growth in federal spending
Repeal the healthcare legislation passed on March 23, 2010
Pass an 'All-of-the-Above' Energy Policy
Reduce Earmarks
Reduce Taxes

I don't agree 100% with everything there, but generally this doesn't seem like a bad doctrine to me. So I really don't understand why the tea party has garnered such a bad/absurd reputation with some people. Could anyone enlighten me?
Old 03-03-2012, 08:06 PM dio is offline  
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How can we reduce taxes if we can't afford to pay for what we do now?
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:15 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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dio
 
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post



How can we reduce taxes if we can't afford to pay for what we do now?

So you don't like the Tea Party because they seem like a mindles "REDUCE TAXES!" group with no thought put into it?

Well to answer your question of,"How can we reduce taxes if we can't afford to pay for what we do now?"

Isn't that where the
"Audit federal government agencies for waste and constitutionality"
and
"Identify constitutionality of every new law"
and
"Demand a balanced federal budget"
and
"Limit annual growth in federal spending"
and
"Repeal the healthcare legislation passed on March 23, 2010"
points come into play? They seem to not just want to reduce taxes, but shrink the federal government and drastically have it cut back on it's spending.
Old 03-03-2012, 08:22 PM dio is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dio View Post
So you don't like the Tea Party because they seem like a mindles "REDUCE TAXES!" group with no thought put into it?

Well to answer your question of,"How can we reduce taxes if we can't afford to pay for what we do now?"

Isn't that where the
"Audit federal government agencies for waste and constitutionality"
and
"Identify constitutionality of every new law"
and
"Demand a balanced federal budget"
and
"Limit annual growth in federal spending"
and
"Repeal the healthcare legislation passed on March 23, 2010"
points come into play? They seem to not just want to reduce taxes, but shrink the federal government and drastically have it cut back on it's spending.

No those things will not help at all.

If I may use a sinking boat analogy, the largest leaks in our economy is the war budget. Your list skips right over the most obvious. Secondly the other largest leak includes the ease with which AMERICAN companies side-step AMERICAN laws and create slave labor products overseas, while claiming they are bringing AMERICAN ways to those other countries.

Finding whether or not something is constitutional is already being done, and has been done for as long as we have had a constitution. I don't see how emphasizing that as a priority will help us get out of debt. Also Obama care is something i support - if you don't you simply don't understand how it works and things it offers.


O
Quote:
bamacare:

-Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans.

-Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool. High-risk pools are a good way to improve coverage of those with pre-existing conditions, which is why John McCain advocated them in the 2008 Presidential campaign.

-Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans. Insurers shouldn't drop people when they get sick, unless they have an extremely good reason, such as misrepresentation of a pre-existing condition. The onus should be on insurance companies, therefore, to investigate these things up front before taking consumers' money.

-Lower seniors' prescription-drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole.

-Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage.

-Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans.

-Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26.

-Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing.

-Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions.

-Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:34 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Originally Posted by dio View Post
So you don't like the Tea Party because they seem like a mindles "REDUCE TAXES!" group with no thought put into it?

Well to answer your question of,"How can we reduce taxes if we can't afford to pay for what we do now?"

Isn't that where the
"Audit federal government agencies for waste and constitutionality"
There's lots of folks on all (read: not just two) sides of the political spectrum who want this, not just Tea Party folks.

"Identify constitutionality of every new law"
I don't really understand where you're getting this. Are you referring to legislation that infringe or limit the rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights?

"Demand a balanced federal budget"
Again, not just Tea Party. Lots of spending at the federal level can be reduced but it will take the children up on the hill to actually work together - not a hopeful prospect.

"Limit annual growth in federal spending"
See above.

"Repeal the healthcare legislation passed on March 23, 2010"
"Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" - heard at multiple Tea Party rallies and the utterly farcical 'Town Halls'.

points come into play? They seem to not just want to reduce taxes, but shrink the federal government and drastically have it cut back on it's spending.

What you need to keep in mind about the Tea Party is that its original founders shared amongst themselves a very different ideology than the current movement. They wanted (and still do) a limited federal government whose main responsibilities should be limited to:
  • defending the country and its interests, using armed defense and diplomatic efforts
  • protecting basic civil rights and constitutional freedoms of all citizens
  • promote interstate and international commerce
  • other "national scale" responsibilities

It's funny you bring up health care. Providing all Americans access to affordable, effective health care is something I think that any civilized country should do for its citizens, but trying to do something like that now would just be a clusterfook in 99.% of all possible scenarios.

*shrug*

tl:dr; tea party, tea bag, what's the difference, they're all wackos
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:35 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:43 PM Scatman is offline  
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No those things will not help at all.

If I may use a sinking boat analogy, the largest leaks in our economy is the war budget. Your list skips right over the most obvious. Secondly the other largest leak includes the ease with which AMERICAN companies side-step AMERICAN laws and create slave labor products overseas, while claiming they are bringing AMERICAN ways to those other countries.

Finding whether or not something is constitutional is already being done, and has been done for as long as we have had a constitution. I don't see how emphasizing that as a priority will help us get out of debt. Also Obama care is something i support - if you don't you simply don't understand how it works and things it offers.


O

Cutting out the war, as in immediately bring the troops home I think is a big component of the Tea party as well. If I understand correctly, the Tea Party is a huge supporter of Ron Paul, and one of Ron Paul's primary points is that he will immediately bring the troops home and stop war spending. So although not explicitly stated on that Wikipedia list, I do think ending war spending is one of the Tea Parties primary objectives as well.

Also, finding whether or not something is constitutional is not being done, and the constitution is continually, and radically overlooked. If following the constitution we would not be at war the way we are, there would be no DEA, Department of Education, IRS, there would be no moral legislation in the federal government.

And to say not supporting Obamacare is because you simply don't understand how it works and things it offers I think is out of line. I don't support Obamacare, I support the Oregon Health Plan. Which is aiming to do everything Obamacare does, just at the state level of Oregon, where I live. I think social services should be handled by the states and the federal government should have no influence over it. I think each state should have it's own social service to provide health care to it's citizens, it should not be organized and controlled by the federal level because it stifles the growth and development of the medical industry by having a too overbearing top down approach to it.

For example lets take the subject of medical marijuana. Which I would hope at this point in time we can all agree that getting cannabis into the equation of being a viable medical option for everyone is of serious importance. Here in Oregon, under the Oregon Health Plan, someone could pursue Medical Marijuana as treatment. However do you think that same option is going to exist under Obamacare and a federally controlled program? I am assuming it wont. Obamacare and a federally controlled program is going to use it's weight to pull in or push out certain kinds of treatments and medications. I worry that Obamacare is going to homogenize healthcare, meaning, every state, every doctor, everyone, will be doing the same thing, and any change is going to have to go through a federal level, meaning it will take FOREVER and be incredibly hard to make changes happen in the system. You won't be able to do anything in healthcare unless your a multibillion dollar business who has the resources to push change at the federal level over years. This really makes me worry about the future of naturopathic medicines, and herbal medicines which generally speaking, are in no way attached to billions of dollars. What if Obamacare rules herbal remedies no longer of interest, and then nationwide the entire exploration of herbal medicine is cut out of peoples option for support? I do not know for sure if this will happen, this is just my worry that things like that could happen if the federal government is given sovereign reign over the entire country on the subject of medicine.

I would much prefer each individual state to manage their own health care system and their own healthcare laws. This would encourage a more rapid progress and evolution of medicine. So for example lets say the state of Oklahoma keeps medical marijuana outlawed, whereas Oregon includes and provides medical marijuana through its state health plan. Then over the next 10 years oregon has all this new and interesting data concerning the subject of medical marijuana that can help teach us new things about it. Maybe it will show us medical marijuana is good, maybe it won't. But the thing is, atleast the data came into existence. If healthcare and medicine is homogenized by enforcement of federal rules, no one will be able to branch off to try different things as easily, slowing the rate of progression.

I agree Obamacare looks great on paper, and on paper I agree with everything about it, and support the notion everyone should have healthcare. But when put into practice, it could not be so glorious as it seemed on paper. This is why doing such radical things at the federal level is a bad idea. Singular states should do it, and see how it turns out, if it succesful at a state level, then maybe other states will adopt it and it will spread. The introduction of radical change should never be forced down from the top to the bottom as Obamacare is doing, rather it should be developed naturally from the bottom up and over time by the process of actually demonstrating it is working and deserving to be continued, which is what would occur if states gradually developed and grew their own methods for dealing with healthcare reform. I personally feel Obamacare is dead wrong, but rather Oregon and the direction it is trying to go with its own internal health care reform is the correct way.

Last edited by dio; 03-03-2012 at 09:27 PM..
Old 03-03-2012, 09:21 PM dio is offline  
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Because anyone who doesn't bow to king Obama is racist..

Or something. It's easier to demonize and dismiss those who have views slightly different than your own (see 2H4U's post) than it is to look at what they truly stand for. I don't know much about the tea party either, but that's what I get every time they're mentioned in a derogatory manner..
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:47 PM joemama is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dio View Post
I don't agree 100% with everything there, but generally this doesn't seem like a bad doctrine to me. So I really don't understand why the tea party has garnered such a bad/absurd reputation with some people. Could anyone enlighten me?

Because regardless of what they say their agenda is, what they are really about is the same fucking failed policies that got us where we are now. The only reason they are called the "tea party" is because george W bush was such a fucking failure and embarrassment that even they couldn't call themselves republicans anymore.

all they are is the same old right wing corporatocracy christian nation BS all wrapped up in the flag and jesus with a brand new name.

they are the ignorant retards who think they are gonna all be the 1% any day now... if that mean old gubment would just get out of their way...

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Old 03-03-2012, 10:04 PM pyramid is offline  
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Quote:
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Also, finding whether or not something is constitutional is not being done, and the constitution is continually, and radically overlooked. If following the constitution we would not be at war the way we are, there would be no DEA, Department of Education, IRS, there would be no moral legislation in the federal government.

The constitution can't possibly enumerate everything just like the Mayan calendar can't possibly go on for ever. Both reflect the best effort of the people at the time. You surely know that the constitution is a "living document" - and as such it can, and should change with the times and needs of it's people. Consider that some of the things you named, if not covered specifically, could be with a simple amendment.

A few examples NOT in the original constitution are things like the speed limit. The DMV. The water department. The fire department. Police. Etc as far as I know, none of those things are specifically listed. We simply have to use common sense.

Also what is your beef - and Michelle Bachman's - against the Department of Education? For fuck's sake we all went to public school barring a few weirdo fags and I for one don't feel cheated or ripped off or anything of the sort. It's such an inane argument it boggles my mind. Planned parenthood, DOE, those things are fine. Occupying multiple countries and having the world's largest war budget and largest national debt is not. Having corporations run our government through lobbies is not.

The tea baggers simply stand for all the wrong non-issues like gays, guns and god and i cannot bring myself to care about any of it, even if i ignore all the larger issues that are holding this country back.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:07 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Because regardless of what they say their agenda is, what they are really about is the same fucking failed policies that got us where we are now. The only reason they are called the "tea party" is because george W bush was such a fucking failure and embarrassment that even they couldn't call themselves republicans anymore.

all they are is the same old right wing corporatocracy christian nation BS all wrapped up in the flag and jesus with a brand new name.

they are the ignorant retards who think they are gonna all be the 1% any day now... if that mean old gubment would just get out of their way...


This
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:10 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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A lot of stuff about not understanding how the real world works was here...

having health care handled on the state level means that states can choose to be the shithole with no regulations where all the health care companies will set up shop. I'm sorry but health care is not just a service, it should be a universal right. everyone needs it, everyone should be party of the system. everyone should get at least the same basic level of coverage.

what we have now is far from ideal but if america isn't ready for a single payer health care system yet, it's probably the best we are gonna get for now.

if everyone weren't trained to hate the word socialism or universal health care, maybe we coudl join the entire rest of the modern world with a health care system that makes sense, costs half as much as what we already pay, and covers everyone.

where has such a crazy system ever been tried before? how about EVERYWHERE ELSE?

we are the only ones with our retarded system of health care and NO ONE ELSE WANTS THE FUCK HOLE WE HAVE.

Yes, rich people come here from elsewhere for care. THEY ARE RICH AND THEY ARE GETTING CARE YOU CAN'T FUCKING GET OR AFFORD. YOU DON'T GET WHAT THEY GET JUST BECAUSE YOU LIVE IN "THE BESTEST NATION ON EARTH EVER EVER".

WAKE THE FUCK UP.
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:14 PM pyramid is offline  
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Indeed if it's something along the lines of "without it you can die" yes it's more of a right...

Certainly more so than being able to vote regardless of color, owning property or "pursuing happiness" - you can't die from not voting. We of course consider that a right.


Ps. why isn't weed legal? I wanna pursue some happiness....
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:23 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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The problem with the tea party is that they live in the reverse world.

They scream about the president raising taxes when he has lowered them. The scream about illegal aliens when the president has deported record numbers and deployed record numbers of agents to the borders. They scream about how he is taking their guns when he has done no such thing. They scream about him "attacking their religion" when all he has done is say what 28 states have already been doing for years and say that religious employers must follow the same rules as all other employers. They bitch and moan about socialism and communism while they collect social security and their health care is covered by medicare. They hate big government unless it's telling gays they can't get married or telling women what they can't do with their bodies. They are "pro life" but once you come out of that womb, fuck you if you need healthcare, welfare, foodstamps, or education. Maybe you can grow up to go off and die in some misguided war somewhere. It is what republican Jesus would have wanted.

Amen.
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