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pyramid
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Originally Posted by ZainGray View Post
Had to read "Landmark: The Inside Story of America's New Health Care Law and What It Means for Us All (Publicaffairs Reports)" for our Medical Law class this semester and I strongly recommend it.



http://www.amazon.com/Landmark-Insid...1152545&sr=1-5

will check it out.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:39 PM pyramid is offline  
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Healthcare cost is basically the same for every age group. It is only "unfair" to the people who make very little money, and it takes up a large portion of their income to have.

It is all about cost of living, and what that percentage is of annual income.

Making people pay for insurance, just so it is cheaper for those who can't afford it is a terrible idea. No matter what you think, healthcare is not a right, it is a privilege. All dems want to do it get a larger pool of money to draw from so they can pay for the poor to vote for them.

You want healthcare? get a better job, more education, stop smoking crack or stealing shit and finish highschool. People make choices, so they must live with them. If you REALLY wanted it badly enough, you would do it. No one has any discipline or will power anymore. It is easier to blame everyone and everything about why you can't do something.

"Just work harder you lazy fucks" doesn't really sound like a viable solution to our shitty health care system. Especially for people with pre-existing conditions, who seriously got shat on before the health care bill's passage.
Old 03-07-2012, 12:44 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by Lasko View Post
Healthcare cost is basically the same for every age group. It is only "unfair" to the people who make very little money, and it takes up a large portion of their income to have.

It is all about cost of living, and what that percentage is of annual income.

Making people pay for insurance, just so it is cheaper for those who can't afford it is a terrible idea. No matter what you think, healthcare is not a right, it is a privilege. All dems want to do it get a larger pool of money to draw from so they can pay for the poor to vote for them.
Rights exist only as insofar as people believe them to be rights, there's no difference between deciding property is a right vs healthcare as a right except chronological order.

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Originally Posted by Lasko View Post
You want healthcare? get a better job, more education, stop smoking crack or stealing shit and finish highschool. People make choices, so they must live with them. If you REALLY wanted it badly enough, you would do it. No one has any discipline or will power anymore. It is easier to blame everyone and everything about why you can't do something.
The vast majority of people who can't afford healthcare are not lazy or "addicted to crack". You probably work less physically than the majority of lower class workers. Convincing yourself your ended up on top of the pile out of merit rather than circumstance is just a psychological trick to dehumanize lower class workers so you don't have to feel bad about living off their exploitation.
Old 03-07-2012, 02:09 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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car insurance is required by states, not the federal government

You're splitting hairs here; the government (regardless of whether local, state, or federal) is forcing you to buy car insurance. This is a good thing for the reasons i listed in my previous post.

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promoting, not forcing
talk about splitting hairs......

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source to george washington fact? and my comment 'or otherwise tax me' was referring to taxing me as a penalty, not that they cant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Acts_of_1792

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if that happens, ill just jump into the pool

but if the penalty is cheaper then carrying insurance, and an insurance company cant deny you, then why carry it?
If you get in a car accident on monday, and get your fat-ass doctors bill on tuesday, and then go buy insurance on wednesday, what makes you think they are going to pay for anything that happened on monday (while you weren't insured)?
Old 03-07-2012, 02:22 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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you also have more doctors, more hospitals and more taxpayers and more tax money, what exactly are you after here?

I'm not after anything. Simply pointing out things.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:36 PM Coqui is offline  
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Not to change subjects but this also explains the meaning of the phrase "well regulated militia" in the second amendment.

militia = citizens

militia != national guard (which did not exist)
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:58 PM pyramid is offline  
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Makes me damn proud to own a PC.
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:25 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I'm not totally against some form of socialized healthcare, but I do have some major concerns..

Since we can learn from countries that have had socialized medicine for quite some time...it would be quite dumb not to choose the most successful programs and send people to find out what makes it work and what can be done better. Talk to average citizens that have had it since birth...see what they like, don't like, would change if they could. Learn from mistakes made early on in the process..etc.

Basically what I'm saying is that if we can't create the best socialized healthcare in the world, it may not be worth it. I just don't trust our policy makers to not fuck it up and give those of us that are satisfied with our healthcare something much worse..
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:44 PM joemama is offline  
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I'm not totally against some form of socialized healthcare, but I do have some major concerns..

Since we can learn from countries that have had socialized medicine for quite some time...it would be quite dumb not to choose the most successful programs and send people to find out what makes it work and what can be done better. Talk to average citizens that have had it since birth...see what they like, don't like, would change if they could. Learn from mistakes made early on in the process..etc.

Basically what I'm saying is that if we can't create the best socialized healthcare in the world, it may not be worth it. I just don't trust our policy makers to not fuck it up and give those of us that are satisfied with our healthcare something much worse..

I posted earlier a list of states and what they are doing already. Vermont hired the guy who actually designed Taiwan's system... I'd say that's doing exactly what you said - someone who has already dealt with the inception and execution of it, and received plenty of feedback
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:47 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I posted earlier a list of states and what they are doing already. Vermont hired the guy who actually designed Taiwan's system... I'd say that's doing exactly what you said - someone who has already dealt with the inception and execution of it, and received plenty of feedback
That's all well and good for Vermont, but we're talking on a national level with 350 million+ people. The only way I can see this working is if the tax dollars taken from each taxpayer goes to a special national healthcare fund and ONLY that...none of this put all tax money in a giant pile and then pick and choose what to spend it on. It would also work much better if every congressman/senator had to be under the EXACT same healthplan as every other American citizen. That may not stop them from fucking it up, but you can damn sure believe it will get fixed faster. Of course most of the guys in Washington can afford to seek out a private practice doctor if it's really bad...(they won't outlaw private practice with a national plan...you can count on that.)
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Old 03-07-2012, 05:57 PM joemama is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
Rights exist only as insofar as people believe them to be rights, there's no difference between deciding property is a right vs healthcare as a right except chronological order.

The vast majority of people who can't afford healthcare are not lazy or "addicted to crack". You probably work less physically than the majority of lower class workers. Convincing yourself your ended up on top of the pile out of merit rather than circumstance is just a psychological trick to dehumanize lower class workers so you don't have to feel bad about living off their exploitation.

I could of been lazy and taken the easy route. There were plenty of times in my life that I could of given up and said fuck it, let the gov take care of me, yet I didn't. I took the hard road and worked my ass off to get where I am.

Property rights is not the same as healthcare. Property is a physical thing, where as the health of someone is based on the situation of that person, who can change many things about them, to improve or reduce their health. Land is land, it won't change unless there is a natural disaster. You can't sell your health, your health is not the same thing as property. Property can be sold and traded, and used as a resource. Health of a person is not valued at anything, it is the labor that that person produces that is what is valued.

By your definition, a person with perfect health, who does nothing their entire life, is valued higher then a person of poor health who works everyday.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:46 PM zumpiez5 is offline  
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This is where I stopped reading.

Seriously. Just listen to what the fuck you said.

You value your dollar over another person's life. A green piece of paper with no intrinsic value over a human being's livelihood.

What the fuck, man

What reason does that person, whom I will now value over my own well being(because my wealth gives me opinions on how to take care of myself, therefore my money is my well being), to take responsibility for themselves?

I need money for food, clothing, and shelter. I EARNED that money through my own labor. Who the fuck are you to say that my labor, and MY health that I put at risk of car accidents, sickness, or death, is worth less than someone who doesn't take responsibility for themselves? My money didn't come from no where. It came from my own actions, and putting myself at risk of many things so I can sustain myself.

Paper money itself has no value, but that money gives values because of what it can give me. You are either a bleeding heart lib who has no idea, or an idiot.
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:02 PM zumpiez5 is offline  
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Quote:
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What reason does that person, whom I will now value over my own well being(because my wealth gives me opinions on how to take care of myself, therefore my money is my well being), to take responsibility for themselves?

I need money for food, clothing, and shelter. I EARNED that money through my own labor. Who the fuck are you to say that my labor, and MY health that I put at risk of car accidents, sickness, or death, is worth less than someone who doesn't take responsibility for themselves? My money didn't come from no where. It came from my own actions, and putting myself at risk of many things so I can sustain myself.

Paper money itself has no value, but that money gives values because of what it can give me. You are either a bleeding heart lib who has no idea, or an idiot.

Dude people griped when they passed income tax, people griped when they mandated seat belts and car insurance too. Sometimes you have to do certain things to sustain this fucking country. Yes taxes get misappropriated, by republicans, for shitty wars and nonsense but no, this country can't continue without an income tax. Similarly we all need medical care at some point or another so it's pretty fucking ignorant to whine about efforts to optimize that system.

Even if you have money, which it sounds to me like you don't, what is wrong with saving some of it? Rich people don't get rich by spending it all. They do however all have insurance because it's smart. They know it will keep them from having to part with the rest of their money should something happen. If insurance was more affordable, the only thing you stand to lose is knowing you were forced into this situation. If that pisses you off then you're just another stubborn dolt who can't see the big picture.

Go wear your tea party hat and buy a of land in the woods. Don't want to be a part of a society, then don't.
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:43 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama View Post
That's all well and good for Vermont, but we're talking on a national level with 350 million+ people. The only way I can see this working is if the tax dollars taken from each taxpayer goes to a special national healthcare fund and ONLY that...none of this put all tax money in a giant pile and then pick and choose what to spend it on. It would also work much better if every congressman/senator had to be under the EXACT same healthplan as every other American citizen. That may not stop them from fucking it up, but you can damn sure believe it will get fixed faster. Of course most of the guys in Washington can afford to seek out a private practice doctor if it's really bad...(they won't outlaw private practice with a national plan...you can count on that.)

I agree, it should be a plan available to all and used by all. This will keep the system at least somewhat honest.

The biggest selling point for single-payer in my eyes is the government can't fuck it up worse than the HMOs did, corruption and embezzling or not. Premiums are very high, benefits are being denied at every turn - we got nothing to lose and everything to gain in this area.
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:47 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I could of been lazy and taken the easy route. There were plenty of times in my life that I could of given up and said fuck it, let the gov take care of me, yet I didn't. I took the hard road and worked my ass off to get where I am.
Most working class people are not any lazier than you or enjoy taking government subsidization if indeed they get any at all. If anything they typically have the most physically demanding jobs in the country and have poorer health because of it, and when they do get sick/injured they're in much more financial trouble than someone with an office job. You're using the myth of welfare queens being anything but a tiny minority of the lower class to justify dehumanizing an entire class of people. You're just repeating the same lie over and over to yourself ("The poor got that way by being lazy") so that you can disregard their welfare.

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Originally Posted by Lasko View Post
Property rights is not the same as healthcare. Property is a physical thing, where as the health of someone is based on the situation of that person, who can change many things about them, to improve or reduce their health. Land is land, it won't change unless there is a natural disaster. You can't sell your health, your health is not the same thing as property. Property can be sold and traded, and used as a resource. Health of a person is not valued at anything, it is the labor that that person produces that is what is valued.
I'm not seeing anything here that defines why one should be a right and one shouldn't other than "It can be sold". By that definition voting isn't a right either.

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By your definition, a person with perfect health, who does nothing their entire life, is valued higher then a person of poor health who works everyday.
No, you're the one defining rights via market value.
Old 03-07-2012, 07:55 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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