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pyramid
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Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
[morpheus]
What if I told you...

That government deficits don't have anything to do with the health of our economy?
[/morpheus]

Actually, if we cut all deficit spending, according to CBO projections, that would represent an immediate ~8+% drop in GDP which would put us back in a recession.

In 2009 when republicans were screaming about deficits and the tea party was taking off, cutting all deficit spending would have represented a 10+% drop in our GDP. If we had done what the nutters were screaming about, it would have been devastating.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/21999



And for all the nutters out there who still want to bitch and moan about how the deficits are all obamas fault and he should stop blaming bush already:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/

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Old 05-28-2012, 06:17 PM pyramid is offline  
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pyramid
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You want the government to stay out of our lives as much as possible yet you are OK with mandatory health insurance?

If we are sticking with our private system the mandate is the only economically feasible option if we are also going to not allow insurers to deny people for preexisting conditions or drop people once they get sick and start costing the insurer money instead of making them money.

Also, telling you to get insurance is not really meddling in your life and it's also not really mandatory. If you really don't want health insurance, you pay the ~$200 annual fine into the system for being uninsured (because you are likely to cost the rest of us who do pay for insurance money) and you go on your merry uninsured way.
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:23 PM pyramid is offline  
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If we are sticking with our private system the mandate is the only economically feasible option if we are also going to not allow insurers to deny people for preexisting conditions or drop people once they get sick and start costing the insurer money instead of making them money.


How is it the only economically feasible option? When you said "sticking with our private system" do you mean keeping it as is? Do you see those as the only two options?


Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
Also, telling you to get insurance is not really meddling in your life and it's also not really mandatory. If you really don't want health insurance, you pay the ~$200 annual fine into the system for being uninsured (because you are likely to cost the rest of us who do pay for insurance money) and you go on your merry uninsured way.


I guess I didn't look at it that way. Can I meddle in your life? You don't have to do what I say but you would have to give me $200 a year if you don't.
Old 05-28-2012, 06:56 PM edplayer is offline  
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You want the government to stay out of our lives as much as possible yet you are OK with mandatory health insurance?

Yes because I do want health insurance just like i want electricity and running water. What I don't want is some prehistoric take on abortion which if made illegal can very realistically alter my life in a way I didn't want or expect. How many of CptJerks babies have gone down the shitter? Don't tell me that isn't a good thing for everybody.

It's so sad that everything has to be spelled out for guys like you
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:46 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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You could have bought health insurance before the law passed you dummy. How does that explain how the government meddling was "unpossible"? You are a fool if you think I need everything spelled out for me. You were the one who claimed that doctors and insurance make you healthy. Or did you already forget that?
Old 05-28-2012, 08:14 PM edplayer is offline  
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pyramid
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How is it the only economically feasible option? When you said "sticking with our private system" do you mean keeping it as is? Do you see those as the only two options?

If we aren't going to convert to a public universal system which would be funded by taxes then the mandate is the only way to pay for universal coverage. Otherwise you are demanding that private for profit companies should provide coverage for people who have never paid into the system. That would drive them out of business if everyone could just wait until they actually need insurance to purchase it. Insurance works because healthy people who don't currently need insurance pay into the system, just like people who are driving around in cars that haven't been in accidents yet still pay for auto insurance.

Quote:
I guess I didn't look at it that way. Can I meddle in your life? You don't have to do what I say but you would have to give me $200 a year if you don't.
Making you (along with everyone else) pay for the cost of the country is not really meddling in your life. If it were then we couldn't have a system of taxation. Surely demanding a percentage of your income is more intrusive than a $200 noncompliance fine.
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:18 PM pyramid is offline  
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If we aren't going to convert to a public universal system which would be funded by taxes then the mandate is the only way to pay for universal coverage.


But you are already assuming that I want universal coverage. My point being that you said it was the only economically feasible option but you didn't say that I wanted universal coverage.



Quote:
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Otherwise you are demanding that private for profit companies should provide coverage for people who have never paid into the system. That would drive them out of business if everyone could just wait until they actually need insurance to purchase it. Insurance works because healthy people who don't currently need insurance pay into the system, just like people who are driving around in cars that haven't been in accidents yet still pay for auto insurance.


How would you describe our current situation (or prior to passage of this law)? Were private insurance companies required to provide coverage for anyone regardless if they had paid them or not? Were they required to sell it to everyone (addressing what you posted above about people waiting till they actually saw a need for it)?



Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
Making you (along with everyone else) pay for the cost of the country is not really meddling in your life. If it were then we couldn't have a system of taxation. Surely demanding a percentage of your income is more intrusive than a $200 noncompliance fine.


What? If a dog was licking its balls 100 miles away from me you could say the dog wasn't meddling in my life. If someone is telling me that I have to buy insurance or pay a fee that is meddling. I'm not saying that taxation isn't meddling but there is no combination of words that you could string together to convince any reasonable person that that isn't meddling. I think you are too emotionally attached to this issue.
Old 05-28-2012, 08:39 PM edplayer is offline  
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Sorry pyramid, I cut off some of your argument. I'm thinking economically feasible option but you wrote much more than that:


Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
If we are sticking with our private system the mandate is the only economically feasible option if we are also going to not allow insurers to deny people for preexisting conditions or drop people once they get sick and start costing the insurer money instead of making them money.



So I'll ask you this. So there are several choices here and the one that came to mind first is requiring insurers not to deny people for preexisting conditions and preventing them from dropping people once they get sick. Do you have any evidence that this is not feasible?
Old 05-28-2012, 08:45 PM edplayer is offline  
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So I'll ask you this. So there are several choices here and the one that came to mind first is requiring insurers not to deny people for preexisting conditions and preventing them from dropping people once they get sick. Do you have any evidence that this is not feasible?

Pretty basic logic there: someone goes without health insurance for many years, paying out of pocket for basic care. They get cancer. They sign up for health insurance, and then the insurers are required to accept them. It costs the insurance company an absolute shit-ton of money to treat them. There's simply no way that it could work.
Old 05-28-2012, 08:56 PM Gibonius is offline  
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But you are already assuming that I want universal coverage. My point being that you said it was the only economically feasible option but you didn't say that I wanted universal coverage.

Universal coverage lowers the cost of insurance and makes sure everyone can get the help they need without driving people/households to bankruptcy. This is good for our economy.

The only reason to not want it is if you are one of those people who believes they are indestructible or someone who doesn't feel they can afford it, Both of those types of people are driving up the costs for the rest of us. Under the new system the government will help you afford it if you want it but can't afford it and if you don't they are still going to make you pay at least a minimal amount into the system (the fine).

Quote:
How would you describe our current situation (or prior to passage of this law)? Were private insurance companies required to provide coverage for anyone regardless if they had paid them or not? Were they required to sell it to everyone (addressing what you posted above about people waiting till they actually saw a need for it)?
Emergency rooms are have always been required to provide emergency care but prior to the new health care law if you were uninsured and came down with something it was pretty much impossible to buy coverage at any price point because the insurance companies were not taking any applicants with preexisting conditions which would cost them money.

They also used things like recision, in which they pretty much decide that you have become too expensive to maintain and just drop you and your coverage no matter how long you have been paying them for.

The insurers also used to be able to write into their policies things like time limited care, wherein you were contractually obligated to pay them and one missed or late payment could result in you being immediately dropped but if you became became sick they were only contractually obligated to cover your sickness for two years or so. This pretty much wrote recision into your health care contract.

Quote:
What? If a dog was licking its balls 100 miles away from me you could say the dog wasn't meddling in my life. If someone is telling me that I have to buy insurance or pay a fee that is meddling. I'm not saying that taxation isn't meddling but there is no combination of words that you could string together to convince any reasonable person that that isn't meddling. I think you are too emotionally attached to this issue.
What can I say? Societies are participatory things and people organize society through government. If you can figure out how to have a government and organized society that works without the government ever compelling anyone to do anything then you are a much smarter man than I.
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Old 05-28-2012, 08:57 PM pyramid is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Pretty basic logic there: someone goes without health insurance for many years, paying out of pocket for basic care. They get cancer. They sign up for health insurance, and then the insurers are required to accept them. It costs the insurance company an absolute shit-ton of money to treat them. There's simply no way that it could work.


So our current system (or prior to this law passing) required insurance companies to cover people in a situation like this?
Old 05-28-2012, 08:59 PM edplayer is offline  
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So our current system (or prior to this law passing) required insurance companies to cover people in a situation like this?

No. That's the explanation for why you can't have guaranteed coverage for pre-existing conditions without a mandate.
Old 05-28-2012, 09:06 PM Gibonius is offline  
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pyramid
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So our current system (or prior to this law passing) required insurance companies to cover people in a situation like this?

No, prior to the new law that's what emergency rooms were for. Dumping grounds for the uninsured of all types.

People who should be seeing a normal doctor for what is wrong with them but they don't have a regular doctor and they can't afford the hundreds of dollars it can cost just to see a regular doctor for a regular visit when you are uninsured.

People who had easily, cheaply treatable conditions but because they were uninsured they never saw a doctor or got their condition treated and now their easily, cheaply treatable condition has become an expensive life threatening situation requiring emergency surgery and a hospital stay.

And finally the people who might have needed some more expensive care to save them or treat their condition but because they were uninsurable they are now dying.

It is so bad that emergency rooms have started taking certain elderly or infirm patients (the ones who can't complain, fight back, or even understand what is going on) and dumping them at other ER's or homeless shelters.

And we pay for all of this in taxes and increased health care costs because those hospitals need to have the cost of these people covered even if those people are never going to pay their bills. And the real kicker is, as expensive as emergency room care is, it is even more expensive if you are uninsured. Being uninsured is like having a bad credit rating. Because the people you are getting service from are unsure if you can or will ever pay them back, they jack up the price of everything just like your creditor jacks up your interest rate. Hospitals know they will get paid by an insurance company, even if it is just partial payment and they have to come after you for the rest. They have no idea if they will ever see cent 1 from someone uninsured. And with 50 million uninsured people in our nation, they end up treating quite a few people who don't ever pay.

The reason health care coverage should be universal is because it is a universal need. No matter how healthy you are now or what you do to maintain that health you are sill pretty much guaranteed to need health care at some point in your life. Everyone is.
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Last edited by pyramid; 05-28-2012 at 09:29 PM..
Old 05-28-2012, 09:13 PM pyramid is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edplayer View Post
You could have bought health insurance before the law passed you dummy. How does that explain how the government meddling was "unpossible"? You are a fool if you think I need everything spelled out for me. You were the one who claimed that doctors and insurance make you healthy. Or did you already forget that?

Dude just stop... really.

I DO have health insurance. i want it to cost less


And doctors do make you healthy much like a mechanic repairs a car. What are you driving at? I suppose you can do all your own surgery, dentistry, blood tests and all that...
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:21 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Shit like this:

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.



should never happen in the richest nation on the face of the planet.

But it does: http://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/enforcement...nt_dumping.asp

because we have relegated people's lives and well being to a profit motive and if you aren't profitable, you can go and die.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:27 PM pyramid is offline  
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