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[H]ard|On
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Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Broadly, my point is that no one is actually being brainwashed ... a lot of people live in the unenviable situation of having no societal power over their rulers and acquiesce as a result because it's still generally a better choice than being dead. On the other hand, many of us are lucky enough to live in liberal countries that make life relatively great and acquiesce because it's the best system available to us.

Le meilleur des mondes possibles.

It requires a pretty low opinion of humans to believe that praying to the state every morning as kids is the reason we accept the system as is ... rather, everyone is accepting the best possible of the very limited choices presented at any given moment.

Country A and country B both say the pledge so everything's relative! ... well, not really, because outcomes matter too. If we accept the "pledge=brainwashing" premise then pretending it's somehow equivalent no matter the nation being pledged to is either ignorant or dishonest and really just boils down to "Hitler wore pants."


A good defense of the idea, I like the Hitler's pants thing. Doesn't truly support your point however because blind fanaticism really is blind fanaticism and pants really are pants. A bit of a false analogy as well because while we do need pants, for legal and climate related reasons but we really don't need to perform a ritual every morning.

Imagine if adults at work were pushed to do it too, or university students.. I think you simply forget how pointless the whole thing is - and i did too honestly.
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:07 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Xcric
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"Hitler wore pants."

even while pooping?
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:22 PM Xcric is offline  
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bingstudent
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The truth is that the pledge you kind of half seriously defend belongs to a country/ideology that has killed millions of more people than what your silly north korea example will ever muster up

the only difference seems to be that you want to use fancy words like "acquiesce" while trying to justify that utter

terrible, just terrible

Not to be callous but if you want to make it about body count America has pretty clearly been a net life saver rather than taker.

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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
A good defense of the idea, I like the Hitler's pants thing. Doesn't truly support your point however because blind fanaticism really is blind fanaticism and pants really are pants. A bit of a false analogy as well because while we do need pants, for legal and climate related reasons but we really don't need to perform a ritual every morning.

Imagine if adults at work were pushed to do it too, or university students.. I think you simply forget how pointless the whole thing is - and i did too honestly.

My point is that labeling the pledge blind fanaticism oversimplifies a really complex world that leads people toward particular sets of choices.

This is also why I started by pointing out that outcomes matter. Blind fanaticism in support of defending liberal civilization? Sounds like one of those good problems to have.
Old 06-29-2012, 08:56 PM bingstudent is offline  
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even while pooping?

Especially while pooping.
Old 06-29-2012, 08:56 PM bingstudent is offline  
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Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Broadly, my point is that no one is actually being brainwashed ... a lot of people live in the unenviable situation of having no societal power over their rulers and acquiesce as a result because it's still generally a better choice than being dead. On the other hand, many of us are lucky enough to live in liberal countries that make life relatively great and acquiesce because it's the best system available to us.

Le meilleur des mondes possibles.

It requires a pretty low opinion of humans to believe that praying to the state every morning as kids is the reason we accept the system as is ... rather, everyone is accepting the best possible of the very limited choices presented at any given moment.

Country A and country B both say the pledge so everything's relative! ... well, not really, because outcomes matter too. If we accept the "pledge=brainwashing" premise then pretending it's somehow equivalent no matter the nation being pledged to is either ignorant or dishonest and really just boils down to "Hitler wore pants."
Believing liberal capitalism is the best possible system "available" is an assumption built on propaganda, aka brainwashing.
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Not to be callous but if you want to make it about body count America has pretty clearly been a net life saver rather than taker.
I don't think the native americans, east asians, latinos, Africans, or even Europeans think that. I'm not really sure what this is even based on except thinking the US saved the world in WWII or something.
Old 06-29-2012, 11:04 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Not to be callous but if you want to make it about body count America has pretty clearly been a net life saver rather than taker.



not that I'm wanting to single out amerikkka, but jesus fuck
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Old 06-30-2012, 04:19 PM Straw Man is offline  
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bingstudent
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Believing liberal capitalism is the best possible system "available" is an assumption built on propaganda, aka brainwashing.

You have a really low opinion of the agency of individuals.

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I don't think the native americans, east asians, latinos, Africans, or even Europeans think that.

America's holocausts were really terrible but all the colonial powers committed some unforgivable acts. There are few modern nations without the genocidal original sin. In terms of empires, though, America's has been benign and has presided over history's greatest expansion of growth and human opportunity.

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I'm not really sure what this is even based on except thinking the US saved the world in WWII or something.

America defeated Nazi Germany, rebuilt Europe, created the global economic system, faced down the Soviet Union, balanced Mao, has acted (not frequently enough) to stop genocides, and even today, in a world full of nuclear weapons, Americans put their lives on the line to ensure security in nearly every region of the world. I guess you could be of the viewpoint that the world has gotten better in spite of America's predominance, but historical experience tends to verify that America's global security guarantee has been a vital foundation for humanity's unprecedented economic performance.
Old 07-06-2012, 09:10 AM bingstudent is offline  
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Redrum
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America defeated Nazi Germany,

u can't be srs. the soviets did all of the heavy lifting while amerikka was on the side lines profiteering as they always do
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:30 PM Redrum is offline  
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u can't be srs. the soviets did all of the heavy lifting while amerikka was on the side lines profiteering as they always do
If by "heavy lifting" you mean provide millions of cannon fodder targets for the Nazi's to waste their ammo on.....and then wait for the arctic circle winter to do the rest....then yes.

America didn't "win" WW2 on it's own, but you can be damn sure things would have turned out differently if Hitler didn't have the Americans helping out their allies. Even your beloved Russians may not have been successful without Roosevelts Lend lease program....along with England and France as well.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:01 PM joemama is offline  
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any way you cut the cake the western front was a cake walk compared to the eastern front, all of you ammmerikkan kunts did was kill hitler youth and 70 year old volkstrum
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:04 PM Redrum is offline  
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If by "heavy lifting" you mean provide millions of cannon fodder targets for the Nazi's to waste their ammo on.....and then wait for the arctic circle winter to do the rest....then yes.

nice troll. now, are you willing to admit (as in, seriously, and stay with that statement) that the forces that western allies faced in world war 2 were several times smaller, and much worse armed, than those on the eastern front? or are you misinformed enough not to?
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:07 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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America didn't "win" WW2 on it's own, but you can be damn sure things would have turned out differently if Hitler didn't have the Americans helping out their allies.

this is true. lend lease was a very significant contribution. but it was still very small on the grand scale (compared to, for instance, the cost of lives, which US basically did not have to pay, due to choosing to join the war, as opposed to being dragged into it).

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Even your beloved Russians may not have been successful without Roosevelts Lend lease program....along with England and France as well.

most people benefiting from the lend lease were indeed soviets, but not russians.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:09 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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joemama
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nice troll. now, are you willing to admit (as in, seriously, and stay with that statement) that the forces that western allies faced in world war 2 were several times smaller, and much worse armed, than those on the eastern front? or are you misinformed enough not to?
Of course they were, I never said that Russian forces didn't play a big part in wearing Germany down before we got there....but they didn't do it all on their own. No single country can take credit for defeating Germany..
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:10 PM joemama is offline  
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teh_rapist
 
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Of course they were, I never said that Russian forces didn't play a big part in wearing Germany down before we got there....but they didn't do it all on their own.

there is a big difference between "playing the absolutely dominant role at all steps along the way in stopping, turning around and eventually defeating the bulk of germany's forces" and "playing a big part in wearing germany down before we got there". the correct statement is the former, the latter implies a much less significant role than was actually played. if anything, one of the key turning points in germany's war - stalingrad, followed by battle of kursk - was played out and decided before western allies even opened the western front.

also, again - a MASSIVE part of soviet military, including those suffering the hardest (belarussians and ukrainians) were not russian. similarly to how a significant part of american military was not, and is not, from east coast. USSR was a union of many, same as the states; even russia includes dozens of ethnic groups besides russians.

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No single country can take credit for defeating Germany..

absolutely true. so do you agree that the statement "US defeated nazi germany" is completely incorrect?
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:17 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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Not to be callous but if you want to make it about body count America has pretty clearly been a net life saver rather than taker.

not remotely true if you consider it at least partially responsible for the lives destroyed by the regimes US helped establish. such as, you know, iran. things like agent orange also bring the net number way negative.

in ww2 alone though your statement probably is true, because the lend lease did save millions (of soviet civilians).
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:21 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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