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TheMorlock
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Originally Posted by teh_rapist View Post
not remotely true if you consider it at least partially responsible for the lives destroyed by the regimes US helped establish. such as, you know, iran. things like agent orange also bring the net number way negative.

in ww2 alone though your statement probably is true, because the lend lease did save millions (of soviet civilians).

lives that would have been destroyed by any other regime in that region and maybe more than was killed under it, since religious rulers are always worse. It's the way they roll,
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:29 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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lives that would have been destroyed by any other regime in that region and maybe more than was killed under it, since religious rulers are always worse. It's the way they roll,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Ir..._d%27%C3%A9tat

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The 1953 Iranian coup d'жtat (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup[3]) was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States under the name TPAJAX Project.[4] The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.[5]
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:33 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Yeah lets go nationalize some business that others have developed and praise ourselves on what champions of justice we are.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:48 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Yeah lets go nationalize some business that others have developed and praise ourselves on what champions of justice we are.

Is this the classic morlock strawman argument again?
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:51 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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joemama
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absolutely true. so do you agree that the statement "US defeated nazi germany" is completely incorrect?
Yes it's incorrect, but so is Redrum's statement making it look like Russia was the one who won the war. I see Europeans (but mostly British) trying to downplay the U.S. role in the war, but the fact is that England was nearly decimated by the time we joined...and France was, well...France.
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:51 PM joemama is offline  
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Yes it's incorrect, but so is Redrum's statement making it look like Russia was the one who won the war.

he didn't say "russia won the war" (if anything because he understands that Russia is to USSR what texas is to US - a part, not the whole), he said "soviets did the heavy lifting". as in:
- fought the absolute bulk of the german army (both manpower-wise and supply-wise)
- were in the war on the allied side longer than US (but not longer than britain)
- faced by far the most serious genocide and starvation (excluding perhaps poland) of all of allied nations
- as well as contributed by far the largest military force to the war on the allies side.

climate helped, sure, but even arctic winters don't last 4 years, and they kill northerners almost as well as southerners.

so while it would not be correct to say "russia/ussr single handed won the war", it is in no way an exaggeration to say "the most significant contribution / the heavy lifting came from USSR". and at the very least, such statement would be much less outlandish than "US beat nazi germany".

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I see Europeans (but mostly British) trying to downplay the U.S. role in the war, but the fact is that England was nearly decimated by the time we joined...and France was, well...France.

how often do you even meet europeans? redrum is american from what i know, he just wasn't born here.

but yes, it's true that britain was in pretty bad shape by the time US joined the war. the reality is though, that they still contributed at least equally to the liberation of western europe, if only because they are closer and could provide the support that US simply couldn't. not to mention, well, battle of britain, and the significant damage to luftwaffe it did. so to say that their contribution is smaller is just badly wrong.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:03 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Is this the classic morlock strawman argument again?

what strawman? Thats what the champion of justice did.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:04 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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I seem to remember another country that believes that forced recitation of praise for their country and leaders is beneficial. Shmorth Shmorea? Korth Norea? Something like that.

If you think having kids mindlessly recite words they don't understand gives them any legitimate sense of love for country, you're dumb. They think their country is great just like they think Optimus Prime is best Transformer or Pinkie Pie is best Pony (she totes is). If you want people to love their country, help be a part of a country they would want to love, don't make kids recite bad poetry at flags.

It's kinda true. We are told all the time to keep out flags, plus a million "holidays" related to our country forming, pledging daily to little children - it's like an early age attempt of mind control. Take a look at other countries - you see Mexicans here and other cultures WAY proud of their country - even though they no longer live in it, yet they don't try to mind control each other like our government does.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:13 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teh_rapist View Post
he didn't say "russia won the war" (if anything because he understands that Russia is to USSR what texas is to US - a part, not the whole), he said "soviets did the heavy lifting". as in:
- fought the absolute bulk of the german army (both manpower-wise and supply-wise)
- were in the war on the allied side longer than US (but not longer than britain)
- faced by far the most serious genocide and starvation (excluding perhaps poland) of all of allied nations
- as well as contributed by far the largest military force to the war on the allies side.

climate helped, sure, but even arctic winters don't last 4 years, and they kill northerners almost as well as southerners.

so while it would not be correct to say "russia/ussr single handed won the war", it is in no way an exaggeration to say "the most significant contribution / the heavy lifting came from USSR". and at the very least, such statement would be much less outlandish than "US beat nazi germany".



how often do you even meet europeans? redrum is american from what i know, he just wasn't born here.

but yes, it's true that britain was in pretty bad shape by the time US joined the war. the reality is though, that they still contributed at least equally to the liberation of western europe, if only because they are closer and could provide the support that US simply couldn't. not to mention, well, battle of britain, and the significant damage to luftwaffe it did. so to say that their contribution is smaller is just badly wrong.
I'm not debating any of that, but it all comes back to no single country can claim sole victory over the Nazi's. You have 3 countries that can say "without our efforts the war would be lost" and that can be debated until the end of time. Hell, even France could have some arguments...but I'm not sure what.

edit- I know Redrum was just trolling
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:15 PM joemama is offline  
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Redrum
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actually i was born in the united states, but i'm european in every manner of the word. culturally. it's the blood that counts.

plus i got that dual citizenship. i'm going to graduate school in sweden for free. u jelly? yeah u jelly
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:20 PM Redrum is offline  
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plus everyone knows the only reason us got involved was to minimize soviet influence over continental europe after it became clear in the summer of '44 that all was lost for the third reich

btw hess offered peace to britain in 1939 but the jews said no, true story
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:21 PM Redrum is offline  
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I'm not debating any of that, but it all comes back to no single country can claim sole victory over the Nazi's.

but this is a strawman argument. neither redrum nor i ever claimed or implied that a single country does so. what we did claim was that one of them was much more significant than the others in its contribution, but that is a very different claim from "___ claims single-handed victory".

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You have 3 countries that can say "without our efforts the war would be lost" and that can be debated until the end of time. Hell, even France could have some arguments...but I'm not sure what.

the free french forces. that counted more than a million people. and participated in the liberation of france, D-Day (mostly through naval involvement), a lot of northern africa campaigns, and actually even in the pacific theater.

also, while i agree that the 3 countries can say this, i think the claims simply are not equally strong. i definitely agree that the civilian death tolls would have been FAR higher had any of the 3 major allies not been involved. but that's very different from "war would have been lost". i simply don't think this is true for the US; not sure if it is for britain.

although, if the US also was not at war with japan, it is actually possible that the war would have been lost. simply because there is no chance that USSR could fight the war on its territory on two fronts. but if it only did not participate in the war on the western front... i do not know. i think allies would still have won the war, but the death tolls would have been far higher.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:22 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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hitler contacted ancient aryan aliens from the plaedes system via the thule society, they promised to provide him with reinforcements of ultra high energy wonder weapons in 1946 if he managed to keep the war going by then, but he didn't, nodboy would have stood a change
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:24 PM Redrum is offline  
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what strawman? Thats what the champion of justice did.

who the fuck is the champion of justice? US government?
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:24 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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TheMorlock
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who the fuck is the champion of justice? US government?


The Hero Of Iran


Mohammad Mosaddegh

Maybe you should read a little about the people you post about.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:38 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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