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Originally Posted by joemama View Post
But giving that extra money to the IRS so that our government can use it wisely for the good of all Americans is also hypothetical....if not outright unrealistic.

Okay that's a function of corruption, not a sensible and progressive tax rate.

I agree - one fucking THIRD of all the money goes straight into housing and feeding jarheads. Well that and all their trucks and ammo and plane rides. This figure doesn't include their meds, medicare and all the other benefits they will receive for the remainder of their life.

That's not as popular of a talking point as disability or welfare for non-enlisted citizens however. Cause you know, they aren't fighting for your freedom to have a hot dog by finding mines in some Arabian desert.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:52 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post

Take a look right here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._and_tax_rates

If "rich" person A wants to hire you, and they make $388,351, they are taxed35% for a total of $135,922 taken out just for the privilege of earning money. Now, person A works for his money. But you want a job. So do 4 other people. So he has now $252,428 to employ 5 people. He has lets say $102,428 reserve for himself, or whatever and now only has $150,000 to employ 5 people. $30,000 per person salary. The idea of reducing his taxes is in theory that instead of having 150k to employ 5 @ 30k he will have 180k to employ either employ 6 people @ 30k or employ 5 people at 36k. Even if he decides to not increase your wages, if he spends that money on products, that money is being put in the hands of companies who can employ more people due to an increase in demand of the goods he is buying with his extra money. But that applies to anyone getting a raise, not just the rich

Unless you are his gardener, you aren't going to be getting paid out of some rich dudes personal income.


Quote:
And look at this more about taxing the rich more:
http://www.heritage.org/federalbudge...income-earners
lol, they chose 2009 because the stock market was at 50% of the value it is now and the top ten percent's "income" had taken a serious hit. Look at the same numbers in a better year and the top 10%'s share of "income" will be much closer to the percentage they pay in taxes.

usually just the top 1% pays 40% of the taxes but they also get 40% of the wealth.

How much the top percents pay in taxes is not because of our "highly progressive tax rates", it is a function of how much more than the rest of us they earn. even with a flat 1% rate, they would pay far more than the rest of us.

even at his 14% tax rate mitt romney pays more in taxes in a year on his 25 million in income than you or I will likely pay in our lifetimes.

Mitt pays 3.5 million a year at 14% of 25 million.

At a 25% tax rate on 50k of income, you would pay 12,500.

At that rate you would have to work for 280 years to equal one year of mitt romney's taxes.

/yay math
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:58 PM pyramid is offline  
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Unless you are his gardener, you aren't going to be getting paid out of some rich dudes personal income.




lol, they chose 2009 because the stock market was at 50% of the value it is now and the top ten percent's "income" had taken a serious hit. Look at the same numbers in a better year and the top 10%'s share of "income" will be much closer to the percentage they pay in taxes.

usually just the top 1% pays 40% of the taxes but they also get 40% of the wealth.

How much the top percents pay in taxes is not because of our "highly progressive tax rates", it is a function of how much more than the rest of us they earn. even with a flat 1% rate, they would pay far more than the rest of us.

Most importantly his example ignores the obvious - when you hire more people, your profit should increase as the business expands. If it stays the same then you shouldn't hire those extra 5 people.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:00 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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yeah but if you're insinuating that the government shouldn't get our money because of that, then why give alcoholics a paycheck, they'll just spend it on booze. or fat people. they'll go buy more food.
At least the people making and selling booze/food are benefiting from that scenario, but our government seems to scarf down mind boggling amounts of money without many tangible positive results. All I'm saying is that simply putting more money in the hands of bureaucrats to distribute/burn/wipe their ass/whatever with is not the answer..
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:02 PM joemama is offline  
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At least the people making and selling booze/food are benefiting from that scenario, but our government seems to scarf down mind boggling amounts of money without many tangible positive results. All I'm saying is that simply putting more money in the hands of bureaucrats to distribute/burn/wipe their ass/whatever with is not the answer..

That's a good point. People selling food and booze are members of your local community. "Defense" contractors are the 1%ers like Romney who avoid taxes like the plague and stash their money off shore.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:05 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Okay that's a function of corruption, not a sensible and progressive tax rate.

I agree - one fucking THIRD of all the money goes straight into housing and feeding jarheads. Well that and all their trucks and ammo and plane rides. This figure doesn't include their meds, medicare and all the other benefits they will receive for the remainder of their life.

That's not as popular of a talking point as disability or welfare for non-enlisted citizens however. Cause you know, they aren't fighting for your freedom to have a hot dog by finding mines in some Arabian desert.
If you think having a strong military is a complete waste..then yeah. Having the strongest military force in the world has it's share of problems and drawbacks, but there are many intangibles that you are either missing or choose to ignore. Strength is power, and power allows you to do things that weaker countries don't even attempt because they know they won't be taken seriously, and there is no real benefit or drawback if other countries choose to ignore them..

Having said that, there IS a lot of waste tied to the military as a whole...but it is governed by the same bureaucrats that you would entrust giving more money to in hopes they would spend it on the things you want it spent on.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:09 PM joemama is offline  
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If you think having a strong military is a complete waste..then yeah. Having the strongest military force in the world has it's share of problems and drawbacks, but there are many intangibles that you are either missing or choose to ignore. Strength is power, and power allows you to do things that weaker countries don't even attempt because they know they won't be taken seriously, and there is no real benefit or drawback if other countries choose to ignore them..

Having said that, there IS a lot of waste tied to the military as a whole...but it is governed by the same bureaucrats that you would entrust giving more money to in hopes they would spend it on the things you want it spent on.

So like what? What do we attempt that other countries with far superior economic indicators don't? Invade random Arabian deserts? Lose in Vietnam? Make a mess of some little African government?

Look at other "largest" military forces - Russia. They still have more missiles and more range on most of them than the US. More tanks, more of a lot of shit. What good does it do? Both countries suffered because of the cold war and both are basically broke now because of it. Our situation seemed more avoidable but Bush really put the last nail into the coffin.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:19 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I edited this into my post above but I want to make sure people see this:


How much the top percenters pay in taxes is not because of our "highly progressive tax rates", it is a function of how much more than the rest of us they earn. even with a flat 1% rate, they would pay far more than the rest of us.

At the14% tax rate mitt romney pays, he pays more in taxes in a year on his ~25 million in income than you or I will likely pay in taxes in our lifetimes.

Mitt pays 3.5 million a year at 14% of 25 million.

At a ~25% tax rate on 50k of income, you would pay 12,500. (single filer)

At that rate you would have to work and pay taxes for 280 years for your taxes to equal one year of mitt romney's taxes.

At that rate it would take you 93.3 years just to earn what Mitt pays in one year of taxes.

At that rate it would take you 666.6 years to earn what Mitt Romney earns in one year.

And Mitt Romney is not all that rich compared to the real wealth.

/The more you know.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:32 PM pyramid is offline  
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Originally Posted by joemama View Post
At least the people making and selling booze/food are benefiting from that scenario, but our government seems to scarf down mind boggling amounts of money without many tangible positive results. All I'm saying is that simply putting more money in the hands of bureaucrats to distribute/burn/wipe their ass/whatever with is not the answer..

Government spending on a variety of programs has a demonstrable stimulative effect on the economy, not to mention it improves people's livelihoods, which, honestly, should be the most important thing. Right now the poor and middle class in this country are rightly fucked because we value "saving" money over government provision of basic goods and services.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:51 PM 5ive is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
I edited this into my post above but I want to make sure people see this:


How much the top percenters pay in taxes is not because of our "highly progressive tax rates", it is a function of how much more than the rest of us they earn. even with a flat 1% rate, they would pay far more than the rest of us.

At the14% tax rate mitt romney pays, he pays more in taxes in a year on his ~25 million in income than you or I will likely pay in taxes in our lifetimes.

Mitt pays 3.5 million a year at 14% of 25 million.

At a ~25% tax rate on 50k of income, you would pay 12,500. (single filer)

At that rate you would have to work and pay taxes for 280 years for your taxes to equal one year of mitt romney's taxes.

At that rate it would take you 93.3 years just to earn what Mitt pays in one year of taxes.

At that rate it would take you 666.6 years to earn what Mitt Romney earns in one year.

And Mitt Romney is not all that rich compared to the real wealth.

/The more you know.

This will go right over everyone's head. Ooooh we're punishing job creators durrrrrr
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:55 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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joemama
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
So like what? What do we attempt that other countries with far superior economic indicators don't? Invade random Arabian deserts? Lose in Vietnam? Make a mess of some little African government?

Look at other "largest" military forces - Russia. They still have more missiles and more range on most of them than the US. More tanks, more of a lot of shit. What good does it do? Both countries suffered because of the cold war and both are basically broke now because of it. Our situation seemed more avoidable but Bush really put the last nail into the coffin.
Having a lot of shit= STRONG Largest doesn't mean the strongest or most influential...if that was the case then China would be on top. If you don't understand why having a strong military (in spite of the trouble it allows you to get in) is important if you want to be a superpower in all areas...I'm not about to try and explain it to you.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:50 PM joemama is offline  
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Having a lot of shit= STRONG Largest doesn't mean the strongest or most influential...if that was the case then China would be on top. If you don't understand why having a strong military (in spite of the trouble it allows you to get in) is important if you want to be a superpower in all areas...I'm not about to try and explain it to you.

Because you can't.

But now USA is joining China and Russia in becoming a problematic over-armed poverty case.
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:56 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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This will go right over everyone's head. Ooooh we're punishing job creators durrrrrr

Also, to clarify my earlier point about the heritage foundation cherry picking shit...

The top 10% owns 90+% of all stocks.

In 2009 the stock market was at 6000-7000 versus a high of 13k?

you do the math...

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Old 08-11-2012, 04:21 AM pyramid is offline  
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Because you can't.

But now USA is joining China and Russia in becoming a problematic over-armed poverty case.
You're right, I can't because no matter what I or anyone else tells you it won't get through to the parts of your brain you have blocked to such things. Just as an example, Iran can threaten to close the Strait of Hormuz, fling missiles at Israel etc..all they want but they know that the U.S. military can and will quickly respond with overwhelming force if needed...otherwise they would have done some crazy shit already. Wasteful spending on the military is a totally different issue, I was just responding to your post where it sounded like you were saying that having more than a token military force was wasteful..
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:32 AM joemama is offline  
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You're right, I can't because no matter what I or anyone else tells you it won't get through to the parts of your brain you have blocked to such things. Just as an example, Iran can threaten to close the Strait of Hormuz, fling missiles at Israel etc..all they want but they know that the U.S. military can and will quickly respond with overwhelming force if needed...otherwise they would have done some crazy shit already. Wasteful spending on the military is a totally different issue, I was just responding to your post where it sounded like you were saying that having more than a token military force was wasteful..

So basically you're going to say "Iran"

lulz.
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