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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dio View Post
McKenna is a big bang supporter, and a big supporter of replacing esoteric understanding with scientific understanding wherever possible, as am I. What McKenna is criticizing is not simply the absurdity of the big bang story, RATHER what mckenna is criticizing is the seeming absurdity you find with Atheists openly critisizing Christian creation story, while the logically deduced Atheist creation theory is really not any less absurd. That is what his talk is about. He no where denies the big bang, feigns ignorance to evidence, or even says it isn't a more superior theory. He simply notes how similiar it is to already existing creation stories, and how it is absurd that people who believe in the resulting big bang theory will put down older christian creation stories on the premise the big bang theory is somehow less absurd.

If its a "more superior theory" then why wouldn't it be less absurd to believe in than religious creation stories?
Old 09-02-2012, 12:12 AM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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pyramid
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he is pointing out the absurdity of people who think atheist's creation story is somehow radically different than Christian creation story.
How are they in anyway similar? The creation story in genesis is more about establishing a 7 day week for a lunar calendar, a day of Sabbath and male dominance than it is a literal story of creation. What we know from science contradicts the entire creation story as told in genesis if it is read literally.

Believing the big bang actually happened is not a leap of faith. Here we are. Look around you for examples of the universe existing. Just because we cannot explain the conditions before the big bang or the cause of it doesn't mean that the evidence that it did indeed happen is not pretty overwhelming.

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Thirdly, someone who has had as assload of psychedellics is much more knowledgable about the origins of the universe, because they literally experienced it. Not viewed it through a scientific tool, they didn't run some expiriment and output a bunch of numbers and formulas on it. They literally rescended their concioussness and ego, and returned to the origin states of existence to literally experience it.
Drugs do not work that way. Drug induced hallucinations seem real because your brain is very powerful. But you are not remote viewing the beginning of the universe when you are tripping balls. You are just tripping balls. You also don't remember it from your genetic memory because your DNA did not exist until long after the big bang and you aren't accessing the memory of the atoms in your body because they didn't exist until sometime after the big bang as well. You are just doing drugs.

Trust me, I know from having tripped many balls before. I even listened to Terrence McKenna many times I was tripping. He spins an interesting story to listen to when you are high as fuck. But that is all psychedelic-fantasy-sci-fi. It's tripper fan-fic, not a scientific dissertation. He was a shaman. He was a high priest of the religion of tripping balls. Take his words for what they were. He didn't go where no man has before, he tripped balls harder than anyone has ever tripped before.
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Last edited by pyramid; 09-02-2012 at 12:40 AM..
Old 09-02-2012, 12:35 AM pyramid is offline  
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:42 AM Fiah is offline  
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Boy, that escalated quickly...
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:39 AM pyramid is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dio View Post
AHEM, read what I just said above and shove that in your ass. Like you always do 'oh here comes big muscley vendetta to act all alpha male and say things all big and tough', when REALLY you rely ONLY on your ability to say things big and tough and hope no one looks past that to the fact that you have no fucking clue what your talking about either. Nothing in my, nor McKenna's talk ignores any supporting evidence. I know McKenna's writings well and McKenna is in NO way a 'big bang denialist' quite the contrary, McKenna is a big bang supporter, and a big supporter of replacing esoteric understanding with scientific understanding wherever possible, as am I. What McKenna is criticizing is not simply the absurdity of the big bang story, RATHER what mckenna is criticizing is the seeming absurdity you find with Atheists openly critisizing Christian creation story, while the logically deduced Atheist creation theory is really not any less absurd. That is what his talk is about. He no where denies the big bang, feigns ignorance to evidence, or even says it isn't a more superior theory. He simply notes how similiar it is to already existing creation stories, and how it is absurd that people who believe in the resulting big bang theory will put down older christian creation stories on the premise the big bang theory is somehow less absurd.

He's wrong. I understand what you are trying to say, even though you're a fucking drugged up psychopath about it (as always). That the "singularity" that scientists reference as the extremely hot, extremely dense initial state of the universe that burst to expand and cool into what we see today, can be labeled as "god" and therefore be no different, in one sense, from the christian belief that a god created the universe/world.

But once again you over-simplify the model to get it to fit with your closed-minded beliefs, ironically the type of belief you try to "expand" through your drug-induced ramblings. Maybe you have too much of an infantile mind, but whatever. The difference is christian beliefs of the start of the universe are not tested. There is no evidence for a christian theory of creation, but there is definitely evidence of the big bang. Observations such as COBE (look it up if you can understand it) show it's not just some crackpot preaching on the streets that the big bang "came from nothing and thats how it is". It's a theory, a scientific theory and is therefore tested and refined. THAT is why atheists (or scientists) laugh at creationists, because they are not the same. It's a difference between scientific observation/experimentation and faith--and creationists only have the latter. Creationists latch onto what they think happened and run with it--hard stop. They don't question, they don't test, they don't learn. Scientists and their theory do--and if they found evidence contrary to the theory, they change their ideas. If you think you this makes christians and atheists alike, you're more of an idiot I ever thought possible.

Frankly, the theory of the big bang is a simpler explanation than "god has always existed, and then he created the universe".


If you want to find a field of study where you can truly best me, why dont you start a thread about LSD or something. Here's your attention, you fucking child.


Last edited by Vendetta; 09-02-2012 at 06:54 AM..
Old 09-02-2012, 06:23 AM Vendetta is offline  
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:34 AM Foolioq is offline  
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lots of anger in this thread.
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:06 AM Jas101 is offline  
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Golf(e)
 
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God you can be a retard dio. I'm not even gonna read the replies. Nobody states the big bang as fact. It merely seems likely because if all matter is floating away from eachother, rewinding time, it all must have been very close together. So its an idea, and one which does help to account for some yhings, like how galaxies formed.
Furthermore, no scientist is stating there was nothingess before the big bang, just that an explosion was the initial even to cause the formation of the cosmos as it thus stands. Perhaps existence was something else, then the big bang or something akin to it took place, and it is not a beginning, but merely a discontinuation of information.

I know I said I wasn't gonna read replies, but your response to august was retarded and I lose faith in you daily.
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Old 09-02-2012, 02:33 PM Golf(e) is offline  
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Golf(e)
 
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Originally Posted by Jas101 View Post
lots of anger in this thread.
Sure, it plagues us. And what better release than to type furiously away at pixels

Really though,
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Old 09-02-2012, 02:39 PM Golf(e) is offline  
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What this thread fails to mention is that astronomy and astrophysics is usually a lot of guesswork.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:06 PM Foolioq is offline  
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Mamma Jamma
 
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Dio, you aren't one of those who say things like, "Well ______ is just a scientific theory, not a scientific fact" are you?
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:08 PM Mamma Jamma is offline  
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dio
 
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Originally Posted by Vendetta View Post
He's wrong. I understand what you are trying to say, even though you're a fucking drugged up psychopath about it (as always). That the "singularity" that scientists reference as the extremely hot, extremely dense initial state of the universe that burst to expand and cool into what we see today, can be labeled as "god" and therefore be no different, in one sense, from the christian belief that a god created the universe/world.

But once again you over-simplify the model to get it to fit with your closed-minded beliefs, ironically the type of belief you try to "expand" through your drug-induced ramblings. Maybe you have too much of an infantile mind, but whatever. The difference is christian beliefs of the start of the universe are not tested. There is no evidence for a christian theory of creation, but there is definitely evidence of the big bang. Observations such as COBE (look it up if you can understand it) show it's not just some crackpot preaching on the streets that the big bang "came from nothing and thats how it is". It's a theory, a scientific theory and is therefore tested and refined. THAT is why atheists (or scientists) laugh at creationists, because they are not the same. It's a difference between scientific observation/experimentation and faith--and creationists only have the latter. Creationists latch onto what they think happened and run with it--hard stop. They don't question, they don't test, they don't learn. Scientists and their theory do--and if they found evidence contrary to the theory, they change their ideas. If you think you this makes christians and atheists alike, you're more of an idiot I ever thought possible.

Frankly, the theory of the big bang is a simpler explanation than "god has always existed, and then he created the universe".


If you want to find a field of study where you can truly best me, why dont you start a thread about LSD or something. Here's your attention, you fucking child.


This is good. I do understand all this prior to you even saying it.

Theres a bigger overarching point to this that I cannot begin to fathom how to explain though... it will have to cook for a while though. It's just shapes and colors right now.

Something about there being a slot in your mind for the transition of nothingness to somethingness, and whatever metaphorical allegory you attach to that slot ultimately controls all resulting metaphysical structures that spawn out of you. And if you have in that slot the concept of 'god did it' or 'it came from nothing', your ultimately giving away your power to manifest to someone else, because the component of your metaphysical self that manifests 'somethingness' has the story of someone, or something else doing it. This is where neither the atheist nor christian creation story sits well with me.


You really need to have psilocybin. You would be absolutely jaw-droppingly shocked at how non-drugged feeling it is. But rather, how extreme the opposite of that it is. Psilocybin is more sober than sober, it is uncomfortably sobering. People don't freak out on psilocybin because they fall into some drunken stupor, they freak out because it's too intensely real, and too clear. They can't handle having such a clear all-encompassing viewpoint on everything.
Old 09-02-2012, 05:08 PM dio is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dio View Post
This is good. I do understand all this prior to you even saying it.

Theres a bigger overarching point to this that I cannot begin to fathom how to explain though... it will have to cook for a while though. It's just shapes and colors right now.

Something about there being a slot in your mind for the transition of nothingness to somethingness, and whatever metaphorical allegory you attach to that slot ultimately controls all resulting metaphysical structures that spawn out of you. And if you have in that slot the concept of 'god did it' or 'it came from nothing', your ultimately giving away your power to manifest to someone else, because the component of your metaphysical self that manifests 'somethingness' has the story of someone, or something else doing it. This is where neither the atheist nor christian creation story sits well with me.


You really need to have psilocybin. You would be absolutely jaw-droppingly shocked at how non-drugged feeling it is. But rather, how extreme the opposite of that it is. Psilocybin is more sober than sober, it is uncomfortably sobering. People don't freak out on psilocybin because they fall into some drunken stupor, they freak out because it's too intensely real, and too clear. They can't handle having such a clear all-encompassing viewpoint on everything.

drugs don't work that way.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:38 PM Xcric is offline  
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Old 09-02-2012, 08:42 PM topcat989 is offline  
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Golf(e)
 
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What this thread fails to mention is that astronomy and astrophysics is usually a lot of guesswork.
Right. But not this thread in general, just dios post.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:18 AM Golf(e) is offline  
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