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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
What gets me is how a lot of republicans deplore public schools. They say a private/charter school will always be better.

Why though? Perhaps because it will pay more to the staff? They never care to explain the actual mechanism. I do see how an increase in pay will attract better candidates, or at the very least more of them to choose from.

They simply believe that anything government touches is worse than private alternatives. It is axiomatic, there is no logic or reasoning behind it.

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Should a teacher get paid less than a nurse? About the same? More? Either way there are fields that will steal away people from other fields, and usually it comes down to the money.
I certainly don't have some exact number for how much teachers should get paid. I'm just going by some gut level. 40k seems too low for a national average, and 90k seems too high. That's all I can say.
Old 09-14-2012, 07:45 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
I don't know enough about how K-12 teachers are evaluated to really say if it's effective or not. Nobody seems all that happy with our current system though.

Either way, I really just don't think that we're going to see a significant influx of "good teachers" just by raising the salary. You can pull existing people to your district, away from other districts, but I don't really think it's going to substantially increase the number of excellent teachers in the whole system. Unless you pay teachers substantially more than the going rate in competing professions, that is, which rapidly becomes untenable financially.

Apparently the teacher's union in Chicago wants that, since $90k average salary is a lot of damn money. Teachers in my county too are on that scale and still aren't happy about it. Obviously everybody wants more money but doesn't feel reasonable to me for teaching to be one of the most well compensated professions out there.


The raise to 90k was already agreed on, that wasn't the bone of contention. Presumably they asked for more.

Well if you raise the salaries it's not like teachers will spawn - or is it? Much like lawyers, nurses and police officers, if it becomes a respected and lucrative field then people will tend to gravitate towards it more. So with time and passing generations we can create an aura of respectability and security for teachers that will eventually attract a wider range of individuals.

Speaking of cops - we pay ours well so they are less likely to take bribes. The downside? You can't usually bribe one. In Russia cops are severely underpaid and will take a bribe basically in almost any driving related incident. The downside? They will pull you over just to extort a bribe out of you. It's not the same as the teachers but there is a similar concept. If you want people to do their job right you have to treat them right.

Ps. 90k for a teacher is great and i would personally go home and stfu if that's what they got on the table already... It can't be THAT bad to teach in south side Chicago, can it? Do you need a vest or something?
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:58 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Kids these days will jump in a class room and yell yo' fuck dis shit and walk out. Aside from government, kids need to learn what authority is until they are on their own. Not sure what it was like for you in the high school days. It also goes hand-in-hand with this:




"It's NOT MY FAULT! It's <insert-someone-indirectly-connected-to-kid>!!"

This is a very accurate picture. People blame the institution and forget all about personal responsibility for their damn kids.
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:01 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I am advocating for none of those things. I am advocating for not arbitrarily raising teacher pay without evidence that it's effective, evidence you have not provided.


You have certainly done a glorious job supporting your thesis that teacher pay is "the determining factor" in student outcomes. What with the zero evidence you've provided and all.

There's numerous studies that correlate teacher quality and student achievement. Google it yourself, I'm not writing you a research paper.
How else are you going to attract bright, educated, and dedicated people to a profession that is low-paying in relation to other fields that require a similar level of education? Not only is the pay low, there's a growing lack of prestige in being a teacher. There used to be a time when teachers were respected. There's a growing earnings gap between teaching and most fields requiring college degrees. Until that's addressed you're not going to get better teachers.

edit - posted before I read [H]ard|On's comments, which pretty much say the same thing.
Old 09-15-2012, 01:11 PM astriy is offline  
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... lawyers... respected...

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Old 09-15-2012, 03:00 PM Jack's raging erection is offline  
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There's numerous studies that correlate teacher quality and student achievement. Google it yourself, I'm not writing you a research paper.
You made a concrete statement and aren't willing to back it up with any evidence beyond "Google it yourself". K. Glad we had this discussion.

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How else are you going to attract bright, educated, and dedicated people to a profession that is low-paying in relation to other fields that require a similar level of education? Not only is the pay low, there's a growing lack of prestige in being a teacher. There used to be a time when teachers were respected. There's a growing earnings gap between teaching and most fields requiring college degrees. Until that's addressed you're not going to get better teachers.
Average college graduate salary: $46k
Average teacher salary: $44k

Yes, that is certainly an enormous gap especially considering teachers generally get better benefits and substantially more time off than most professions.

I'm not at all opposed to pulling teachers up from making decidedly average salaries, but this thread was prompted by the particular demands of Chicago teachers. They're looking at literally double the average wage of a teacher in this country. That's not a model that makes sense for the country as a whole to me.

I don't think raising pay is going to solve the respect issue either. That's a cultural issue. Teachers in Europe, even the Scandinavian countries we'd like to model our educational system after, make around what US teachers do, or even less.

Last edited by Gibonius; 09-15-2012 at 03:12 PM..
Old 09-15-2012, 03:06 PM Gibonius is offline  
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lol yea yea
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:18 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
You made a concrete statement and aren't willing to back it up with any evidence beyond "Google it yourself". K. Glad we had this discussion.


Average college graduate salary: $46k
Average teacher salary: $44k

Yes, that is certainly an enormous gap especially considering teachers generally get better benefits and substantially more time off than most professions.

I'm not at all opposed to pulling teachers up from making decidedly average salaries, but this thread was prompted by the particular demands of Chicago teachers. They're looking at literally double the average wage of a teacher in this country. That's not a model that makes sense for the country as a whole to me.

I don't think raising pay is going to solve the respect issue either. That's a cultural issue. Teachers in Europe, even the Scandinavian countries we'd like to model our educational system after, make around what US teachers do, or even less.


We'd like to?

Most republicans I know call Obama a "Swedish Socialist" like it's a bad thing. So by "we" you mean "some of us"


Also many teachers often have a masters. Some states/districts require it, particularly for specialized programs such as Advanced Placement classes that earn college credit.. There ARE shortages of teachers as well. If they get paid more then you can require a higher level of education. One does follow the other and a teacher SHOULD make more than some random envelope stuffer with a BA in entomology or liberal arts or some nonsense, even if they still only have a BA.
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:26 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I've heard this shit about teachers having masters here about 10 times. Seen it... or requiring it... 0.
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Old 09-15-2012, 07:39 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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I've heard this shit about teachers having masters here about 10 times. Seen it... or requiring it... 0.

At least in NH:
http://www.education.nh.gov/certific...s/brochure.pdf

Every single one of my high school teachers had a masters. Many of them had engineering or other technical experience prior to teaching. But, and this is key - fairly well-to-do district, so public school teachers got paid quite well.

This is high school though. I don't know what the requirements for elementary/middle school teachers were.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:58 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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Well whatever your position on the strike, the political cartoonists are having....*puts on shades* .......a field trip day

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Old 09-15-2012, 09:59 PM topcat989 is offline  
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Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
So a better question. Is the title of rapist's job "Nuclear Engineer" - or did he get a degree in "Nuclear Engineering" - there is quite a bit of difference between sitting in classes and doing something....

The job title is "safety engineer". This is short for "reactor and plant safety systems engineer". Formerly an NRC-licensed research reactor operator.

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That, and the term "Teaching" is very wide open. You could be teaching retards (literally, special ed classes), K-12, honors classes, or college.

This is true. When I said "teaching well" I specifically referred to:

- K12 (high school, really)
- Teaching WELL, as in those talented, rare people that Gibonius was talking about. Not referring to "decent" here, I am talking only about the very rare best-of-the-best teachers. Among other things, this involves being able to explain something in multiple different ways, and prepare the students for standardized tests AND for actual knowledge/skill simultaneously. I've only had a few teachers like that in my life.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:47 PM teh_rapist is offline  
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I've heard this shit about teachers having masters here about 10 times. Seen it... or requiring it... 0.

I personally know at least three people who are teaching with a masters, and that's not counting anyone who taught me. We have better schools I guess.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:53 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
I've heard this shit about teachers having masters here about 10 times. Seen it... or requiring it... 0.
Home schooled doesn't count.

Each state has different requirements to be able to teach in certain levels of education.
For California public schools: I know for K-12 requires at least baccalaureate.
For community colleges you need at least a Masters
And all UCs and State colleges, most of the time, will look at you funny if you don't have a PhD.
And the degree has to be from a fully accredited school.
Not including the additional things they have to do (like as an intern teacher for a year without pay while under another teacher) to get certified.
From the little research I've done, Illinois has similar requirements.

Before enrolling into a school, I highly recommend researching the schools accreditation and rating or you will end up into a school who teaches like Patriot University.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:50 PM CRasch is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
You made a concrete statement and aren't willing to back it up with any evidence beyond "Google it yourself". K. Glad we had this discussion.


Average college graduate salary: $46k
Average teacher salary: $44k

Yes, that is certainly an enormous gap especially considering teachers generally get better benefits and substantially more time off than most professions.

I'm not at all opposed to pulling teachers up from making decidedly average salaries, but this thread was prompted by the particular demands of Chicago teachers. They're looking at literally double the average wage of a teacher in this country. That's not a model that makes sense for the country as a whole to me.

I don't think raising pay is going to solve the respect issue either. That's a cultural issue. Teachers in Europe, even the Scandinavian countries we'd like to model our educational system after, make around what US teachers do, or even less.

I find it ridiculous that you would dispute that better teachers equate to better students, so it's not a discussion I'm even going to bother having with you.

As for the Chicago system, this is precisely the model that we need to consider. You're stuck on the "average" salary. You do realize that this is for a range of teachers with decades in experience and multiple masters and even doctorate degrees and teachers with a lot of specialized training. Starting salary in Chicago is around $50k. This is not that much money to live off in Chicago.
As for the respect issue, how about we start with senators not calling striking teachers thugs?
I can't comment on the Europe comparison because there's a lot of factors to consider. Do the teachers there have to have the same education that they themselves have to pay for? What about benefits, cost of living, etc? There's a lot of variables beyond salary.
Old 09-17-2012, 09:43 AM astriy is offline  
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