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augusttremulous
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You're incredibly oversimplifying their reasons for striking. There are a lot of other things they are negotiating, including not having their salaries determined by their students' standardized test scores. One reason why that's not a good idea is that special education students are held to the same standards as all of the rest of the students when it comes to these standardized tests, so as a teacher if you have a large number of students with exceptionalities that make learning and/or teaching difficult, you'll be penalized. Furthermore, with low-income areas, students are often not given the same support at home that they are in more middle-class areas. They can't afford tutors, they often are latch-key kids, more single parents and households where both parents work, they may be tasked with taking care of siblings because parents can't afford childcare. Standardized test scores are no way to judge the effectiveness of a teacher, and their salaries should not be determined by them.
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:51 PM augusttremulous is offline  
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augusttremulous
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As... it... should? It's a direct correlation of your performance. If you showed you were mentoring the student, than that is all you can do. You won't be punished you - Take a look at ANY job other than unionized ones. Your performance ALWAYS influences your evaluation you shitcock. THATS WHAT A JOB IS FOR. Can't handle the job performance? Then it's not for you.

That's just it- they're not going to take into account your actual performance, if they were they wouldn't be judging you based on your students' scores. Teachers can only do what they can do in the 8 hours or so a day they have the students- less when you factor in students that change classes. You can be a fucking stellar teacher, and if you get stuck with a class that despite your best efforts doesn't improve their standardized test scores as much as they need to, you'll be penalized. True assessment of students' knowledge comes in many forms, not everyone does well on standardized tests despite being smart.
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:55 PM augusttremulous is offline  
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I totally agree - don't just judge them by the scores. That's fine. As I said, show your due diligence that you tried to help the kid - and thats that. You can't help a kid that goes home to parents snorting coke. But if you think your overall performance shouldn't be evaluated, you're a dumbass that needs to meet the real world. Your performance needs to be evaluated - as with any job it's up to the manager if you are working hard and if you're just being lazy and making our generation the piece of shit that it currently is.
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Old 09-11-2012, 06:59 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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I live in a more expensive area (DC) and I make less than that and get by fairly easily. 76k is going to be in the low to mid 4000's after taxes; if you can't live off of that you are fucking dumb.

it's certainly a decent living but it's not as if you'll be buying a mini yacht and a second vacation home with it. so many people act like the typical union worker demands the life of a millionaire when all they really ask is not to live pay check to pay check and have enough money to save after expenses...
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:00 PM Redrum is offline  
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augusttremulous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
I totally agree - don't just judge them by the scores. That's fine. As I said, show your due diligence that you tried to help the kid - and thats that. You can't help a kid that goes home to parents snorting coke. But if you think your overall performance shouldn't be evaluated, you're a dumbass that needs to meet the real world.

Nobody thinks teachers shouldn't be evaluated. They are opposed to that one singular form of evaluation because it's not a reliable indicator of teacher performance, and they don't want their salaries tied to it- that's a major major point of contention for them right now.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:03 PM augusttremulous is offline  
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it's certainly a decent living but it's not as if you'll be buying a mini yacht and a second vacation home with it. so many people act like the typical union worker demands the life of a millionaire when all they really ask is not to live pay check to pay check and have enough money to save after expenses...

My problem isn't so much the pay - it's moreso the random demands for raises that are undeserved, and protecting the people who don't work and make everyone else suffer - yet there are people willing to work 10x as hard as the dickhead that can't get the job thanks to the union. However, public school teaching I can definitely say is one thing that doesn't need to be leaning towards upper-middle class Very little skill - abundance of people that want to do it - in addition to many other perks mentioned.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:03 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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As... it... should? It's a direct correlation of your performance. If you showed you were mentoring the student, than that is all you can do. You won't be punished you - Take a look at ANY job other than unionized ones. Your performance ALWAYS influences your evaluation you shitcock. THATS WHAT A JOB IS FOR. Can't handle the job performance? Then it's not for you.

i cannot laugh hard enough

standardized tests have been proven to not accurately reflect a student's progress. my neighbor is an elementary teacher, she has two students in the gifted category that got 100% on both portions of the FCAT last year, how can she improve those students?
she has almost 10 students that get daily Special Ed treatment, this treatment completely overlaps a 45 minute session that she has set in her schedule to teach reading skills, how can she teach her students when she doesn't even have them in her class? And yet those students still reflect on her evaluation as a teacher
students come to school hungry, they are neglected at home, they get no help or aid from their parents or guardians

in a normal job your evaluation is based on your performance, in the teaching world your evaluation is based on someone else's performance that is not solely dependent on your performance as a teacher

there are so many fucking problems with tying teacher's performance evals with standardized tests that it's nowhere near funny
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:05 PM asa is offline  
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unions can be abusive, but again i'd rather a union dish out the abuse over a huge multinational corporation fucking everybody else over. do you not realize how quickly things will devolve to china-tier work conditions if unions didn't exist any more?
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also if you want american public schools to not be shit any more all you really have to do is go back to racially segregating the schools again.

seriously.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:06 PM Redrum is offline  
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Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
I totally agree - don't just judge them by the scores. That's fine. As I said, show your due diligence that you tried to help the kid - and thats that. You can't help a kid that goes home to parents snorting coke. But if you think your overall performance shouldn't be evaluated, you're a dumbass that needs to meet the real world. Your performance needs to be evaluated - as with any job it's up to the manager if you are working hard and if you're just being lazy and making our generation the piece of shit that it currently is.

there's one person that implied that they shouldn't be evaluated at all

that was you
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:07 PM asa is offline  
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unions can be abusive, but again i'd rather a union dish out the abuse over a huge multinational corporation fucking everybody else over. do you not realize how quickly things will devolve to china-tier work conditions if unions didn't exist any more?

Uhhh - knowing how every corporation has an ENTIRE department for the satisfaction of every employee due to the prevalence of lawsuits for instant millions... Yes, yes I do know - and Unions are NOT useful anymore.

I had surgery in January this year that involved mass recovery since it was brain surgery - I gave them a letter from my doc describing the recovery knowing it was taking me 5 seconds to remember names of people I worked with daily. Yet I still get inquiries from HR asking about how I am doing - and inquiring if I can get a letter saying I am all better now (Hah, fat chance of me doing that).
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:11 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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augusttremulous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
My problem isn't so much the pay - it's moreso the random demands for raises that are undeserved, and protecting the people who don't work and make everyone else suffer - yet there are people willing to work 10x as hard as the dickhead that can't get the job thanks to the union. However, public school teaching I can definitely say is one thing that doesn't need to be leaning towards upper-middle class Very little skill - abundance of people that want to do it - in addition to many other perks mentioned.

You keep talking about how little skill it takes, but then bitch about bad teachers. Clearly it takes some skill if you think some people lack that skill and are bad teachers.

But of course, people who have nothing to do with education love to talk like they have any understanding of the pedagogy and work it takes to teach effectively.
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Old 09-11-2012, 07:11 PM augusttremulous is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
I totally agree - don't just judge them by the scores. That's fine. As I said, show your due diligence that you tried to help the kid - and thats that. You can't help a kid that goes home to parents snorting coke. But if you think your overall performance shouldn't be evaluated, you're a dumbass that needs to meet the real world. Your performance needs to be evaluated - as with any job it's up to the manager if you are working hard and if you're just being lazy and making our generation the piece of shit that it currently is.
But that's exactly the problem; it's a double-edged sword. Who gets to make the decision on whether or not they're up to par and whether or not the person deciding that is competent? Who's the analogous manager here, the principal of the school or the state?

I don't think any normal person would say that teachers shouldn't be evaluated, and should have free reign over their own effectiveness. By the same token I think it's wrong to generalize and say that most/all teachers don't work hard, don't know anything, and are lazy union drones. As you just said, some of the problems kids are having with education these days have to do with our culture and not necessarily the quality of the education.... I think that's what really stirred the pot.
Old 09-11-2012, 07:12 PM VoodoochildBC is offline  
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also if you want american public schools to not be shit any more all you really have to do is go back to racially segregating the schools again.

seriously.

Anyone can laugh or joke about that, but data will never lie

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Old 09-11-2012, 07:14 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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Anyone can laugh or joke about that, but data will never lie

and income and attention at home have nothing to do with a child's intelligence

that's not even getting into any questions about bias in intelligence tests
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