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astriy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666 View Post
I see no minimum wade it 2 possible outcomes

A: you pay a wadge so low that becomes the norm across the country and the so called 99% cannot afford a single thing bankrupting every company.

B: you pay a rate so low that again becomes the norm, causing product cost across the country to drop and the low wadge is more than enough everyone can buy whatever they want.

I see small regulations a similar way

A: you pollute the air, workers die and no one will work for your company or buy your products because independant consumer watch dogs exploit your company for the evil it really is

B: or you have to operate responsibly because of the above reasons...


Is it really that hard to understand

For example, asbestos companies knew for years how dangerous it is in particle form....

And now asbestos companies are paying out the ass for lung cancer lawsuits even to people who smoke 5 packs a day, who worked in a particle asbestos field.

B:


First off, 99% of people don't make minimum wage - about 5% of people do. Doing away with minimum wage is going to hurt those 5% and push them further into poverty while making the upper income people wealthier.
As for the environmental impact - you cannot have the market police itself on this one buddy. If the cost of doing environmental damage, including lawsuits and whatnot is less than the profit - companies will still do it. Most people would like environmental and safety conditions that are much better than what the market will bear.
Old 09-12-2012, 10:58 AM astriy is offline  
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asa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666 View Post
I see no minimum wade it 2 possible outcomes

A: you pay a wadge so low that becomes the norm across the country and the so called 99% cannot afford a single thing bankrupting every company.

B: you pay a rate so low that again becomes the norm, causing product cost across the country to drop and the low wadge is more than enough everyone can buy whatever they want.

I see small regulations a similar way

A: you pollute the air, workers die and no one will work for your company or buy your products because independant consumer watch dogs exploit your company for the evil it really is

B: or you have to operate responsibly because of the above reasons...


Is it really that hard to understand

For example, asbestos companies knew for years how dangerous it is in particle form....

And now asbestos companies are paying out the ass for lung cancer lawsuits even to people who smoke 5 packs a day, who worked in a particle asbestos field.

B:

This post has no consistent internal logic

HOLY CRAP! postin on the intarwebs from my phone!
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:33 AM asa is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666 View Post
I see no minimum wade it 2 possible outcomes

A: you pay a wadge so low that becomes the norm across the country and the so called 99% cannot afford a single thing bankrupting every company.

B: you pay a rate so low that again becomes the norm, causing product cost across the country to drop and the low wadge is more than enough everyone can buy whatever they want.

I see small regulations a similar way

A: you pollute the air, workers die and no one will work for your company or buy your products because independant consumer watch dogs exploit your company for the evil it really is

B: or you have to operate responsibly because of the above reasons...


Is it really that hard to understand

For example, asbestos companies knew for years how dangerous it is in particle form....

And now asbestos companies are paying out the ass for lung cancer lawsuits even to people who smoke 5 packs a day, who worked in a particle asbestos field.

B:

This demonstrably does not work. Look at the US from about 1880 until the 1930s. Pollution and horribly unsafe products were everywhere, and the fact that negative publicity could ruin your business did very very little to dissuade companies.


I don't know why you libertarians want to live in a world where you need to wait to be harmed to stop things that are obviously wrong. Suing after the fact is very, very limited consolation to people who have been harmed and isn't an especially large deterrent for companies anyway.
Old 09-12-2012, 11:56 AM Gibonius is offline  
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asa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
This demonstrably does not work. Look at the US from about 1880 until the 1930s. Pollution and horribly unsafe products were everywhere, and the fact that negative publicity could ruin your business did very very little to dissuade companies.


I don't know why you libertarians want to live in a world where you need to wait to be harmed to stop things that are obviously wrong. Suing after the fact is very, very limited consolation to people who have been harmed and isn't an especially large deterrent for companies anyway.

Hell, lawsuits aren't even a deterrent. There's no guarantee that your lawyers are better than theirs. Factor in appeals, and every other legal loophole, you could be dead before you see any money.

Look at how the 9 /11 responders were treated, wasn't it 10 years before the government recognized their complaints as legitimate and setup something to help them? Even then they got a further kick in the nuts by having to prove that they werent a terrorist.
And thats the fucking government, an organizations supposedly dedicated to helping us

HOLY CRAP! postin on the intarwebs from my phone!
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:28 PM asa is offline  
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astriy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Suing after the fact is very, very limited consolation to people who have been harmed and isn't an especially large deterrent for companies anyway.
I have a friend that's working at a law firm trying to compensate victims of mountain top removal coal mining. These people have their houses destroyed by aftershocks from blasts and have all kinds of health problems from air and ground water pollution as a direct result of the coal company. The firm has to operate without any profit for many years for the 1st phase of the lawsuits and even if it wins, they still don't get money until all the appeals are exhausted. So in order to right this wrong you have to have highly educated and dedicated people working pretty much for free and the victims wait for 10 or more years to get compensated. This system only benefits the polluter. Without gov't regulations this gets even worse.
Old 09-12-2012, 12:31 PM astriy is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666 View Post
It's not about the taxes jackass. It's about running a business free of government interference and being able to keep what you earn.

If you don't like how a business is operating. DON'T FUCKING PATRONIZE THEM.

so...
when a business practices ruthless tactics, keeps workers below the weekly hour limit so that they are technically not full time and can't earn proper benefits and generally pays their workers less, practices predatory pricing, outspends and outlawyers it's critics, and generally runs every single other business around it into the ground...

then how do you shop anywhere else? they've destroyed all their competitors
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:50 PM asa is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666 View Post
I see no minimum wade it 2 possible outcomes

A: you pay a wadge so low that becomes the norm across the country and the so called 99% cannot afford a single thing bankrupting every company.

B: you pay a rate so low that again becomes the norm, causing product cost across the country to drop and the low wadge is more than enough everyone can buy whatever they want.

So we should either bankrupt everyone or somehow magically readjust what everything costs to a much lower pricepoint in a global economy and this will somehow increase our GDP?

I see libertarians still don't have a good grasp on how economies work.

Quote:
I see small regulations a similar way

A: you pollute the air, workers die and no one will work for your company or buy your products because independant consumer watch dogs exploit your company for the evil it really is

B: or you have to operate responsibly because of the above reasons...


So we are going to do away with the EPA entirely and rely on "consumer watch dogs" to completely replace them? I'm sure John Stossel can't wait.

And what if no consumer watch dog finds out about your company's pollution and you end up poisoning an entire community, what then? Or is Erin Brockovich going to save everyone singlehandedly?

Quote:
Is it really that hard to understand

For example, asbestos companies knew for years how dangerous it is in particle form....

And now asbestos companies are paying out the ass for lung cancer lawsuits even to people who smoke 5 packs a day, who worked in a particle asbestos field.

B:
Yeah, they knew how dangerous it was and they still used it in industry, residential buildings and people's homes anyway. They kept how dangerous it was a secret for 40 years. It only came out that they knew because of court cases against asbestos producers. So what if they are getting sued now, that doesn't make the mesothelioma go away. That doesn't bring people back to life.

Also, asbestos was banned by the EPA. http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/ban.html

If it weren't for the EPA they might still be using it in whatever products they wanted.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:18 PM pyramid is offline  
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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666 View Post
It's not about the taxes jackass. It's about running a business free of government interference and being able to keep what you earn.

If you don't like how a business is operating. DON'T FUCKING PATRONIZE THEM.

You want to run a business free from government interference? Go find a deserted desert island somewhere. That way you wont have the government interfering with all their clean environments, infrastructure, military protection, legal protection, patent enforcement, and a fair regulated market for you to do business in.

Stupid government, creating a safe clean place for you to do business. Who do they think they are, expecting you to pay into the system which you benefit and profit from.
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Old 09-12-2012, 02:24 PM pyramid is offline  
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:49 PM 5ive is offline  
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Actually according to this weird box from the movie Hellraiser, lowering taxes raises government revenue.
Old 09-12-2012, 03:58 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Rancidpunk666
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
So we should either bankrupt everyone or somehow magically readjust what everything costs to a much lower pricepoint in a global economy and this will somehow increase our GDP?

I see libertarians still don't have a good grasp on how economies work.





So we are going to do away with the EPA entirely and rely on "consumer watch dogs" to completely replace them? I'm sure John Stossel can't wait.

And what if no consumer watch dog finds out about your company's pollution and you end up poisoning an entire community, what then? Or is Sally Brockovich going to save everyone singlehandedly?



Yeah, they knew how dangerous it was and they still used it in industry, residential buildings and people's homes anyway. They kept how dangerous it was a secret for 40 years. It only came out that they knew because of court cases against asbestos producers. So what if they are getting sued now, that doesn't make the mesothelioma go away. That doesn't bring people back to life.

Also, asbestos was banned by the EPA. http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pubs/ban.html

If it weren't for the EPA they might still be using it in whatever products they wanted.

EPA was created in 1970. Companies knew asbestos was dangerous long before that.

Why do you expect the government to do everything for you?
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:03 PM Rancidpunk666 is offline  
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5ive
 
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I don't expect companies to have my best interests in mind
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:17 PM 5ive is offline  
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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666 View Post
EPA was created in 1970. Companies knew asbestos was dangerous long before that.

Why do you expect the government to do everything for you?

Because I don't have time to personally test every material and byproduct of industry to see if they are hazardous or make sure they are being disposed of properly. And neither do you.

Yes, companies knew asbestos was dangerous for several decades and they still used it and would still be using it if they weren't stopped by the government.

This perfect little world you think we live in where companies always do what is in their workers, customers and the public's best interest doesn't exist. Companies do what is in their best interest. If that means polluting without paying for the cleanup or doing anything to stop the pollution, that is called externalizing costs and companies are perfectly happy to do that if they are not stopped.

How do you think consumers are even supposed to make informed decisions about a company and whether or not to support them if they don't even know what the company is up to? You think companies put out press releases to inform consumers about their negative business practices and how they are harming the communities they are situated in? Are you completely ignorant of the history of labor and environmental laws and why we even have them?
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:36 PM pyramid is offline  
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Erin Brockovich*

lol, where the hell did I get Sally?
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:37 PM pyramid is offline  
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Silly Pyramid, in Illinois, that nearly $6b saved in tax cuts created 50,000 high paying jobs. Don't you know how the trickle down effect works?

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