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Old 09-19-2012, 10:27 AM Vote McCain! is offline  
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asa
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Originally Posted by punisher View Post
Metaphore time:
The titanic is sinking, and the Govt is bailing with the only thing they can afford, a paper cup. It ain't going to work.
It is like having an engine with a bad fuel pump. Throw some starting fluid in it, and it sputters for 5 seconds and dies. God forbid you replace/repair the pump.
to follow, what is the pump that needs to be replaced?



HOLY CRAP! postin on the intarwebs from my phone!
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:02 AM asa is offline  
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The government spending is mostly to counter act the effects of the failure of the "private sector" (in reality the banking and finance sectors of the economy). The elite have managed to totally shift the narrative and focus of the current economic crisis from its actual source (capital) to the symptom (massively increased government spending). The economic policy of the government would be largely the same if Republicans were in charge in any case, since both parties will follow convention in economic crisis (basically what the financial elite tell them to do).

Except that the private sector is entirely dependent on the actions of the public. Hence - making government changes/compensation/debt to try to guide the public actions is rather... well.... laughable.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:28 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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to follow, what is the pump that needs to be replaced?



HOLY CRAP! postin on the intarwebs from my phone!

Thats one of my problems................excessive editing. I cut a lot of that post out, and left that in.

In summary: There is no "pump" for our economy, no quick fixes, nothing the governmant can do in the short term to help the economy or reduce unemployment. For the first time the US is confronted by global economics and competition, and no government resources available to even effectively bail us out short term. Its like we have an empty can of starting fluid trying for one last gasp of the engine with absolutely no chance of making it run.

Liberals blame Republicans, Republicans blame liberals, it never changes. We are so quick to point a finger, we don't recognize the base cause(s).

CEOs and corporations have always been greedy bitches, it is what they do. If you think anything has changed, jump in the wayback machine to the 19th century and look at how business was conducted. The problem isn't corporate greed, that is a constant. The change we cannot deal with is competition.

Competition is bad......from a business standpoint. Competition is bad............from an employee standpoint. The more competition you have, the less your product(or labor) is worth. The US has competition on all fronts from every country that we deal with. Every American worker is in competition with every worker worldwide that makes the same product. If the driving factor is cost, then any product (or labor) with a higher cost is at a disadvantage. Now many computer parts are made in the US? How many I-phones? How many laptops? Of all the high tech products, how many are US made? Intel and AMD have some FABS here, but otherwise, what?

For the most part, the US has lost its advantage. Young workers today, who think they are going to enjoy the same benefits as their baby boomer counterparts, are so fucked. I guess taking care of old people is a growing industry, and powered wheelchairs........as long as medicare picks up the $4K bill on those things. Another govt. subsidy I suppose.

Get used to a lower standard of living. it is inevitable. We will probably have nets around all of our buildings like Foxconn soon.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:11 AM punisher is offline  
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lollersk8s
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Originally Posted by punisher View Post
Thats one of my problems................excessive editing. I cut a lot of that post out, and left that in.

In summary: There is no "pump" for our economy, no quick fixes, nothing the governmant can do in the short term to help the economy or reduce unemployment. For the first time the US is confronted by global economics and competition, and no government resources available to even effectively bail us out short term. Its like we have an empty can of starting fluid trying for one last gasp of the engine with absolutely no chance of making it run.

Liberals blame Republicans, Republicans blame liberals, it never changes. We are so quick to point a finger, we don't recognize the base cause(s).

CEOs and corporations have always been greedy bitches, it is what they do. If you think anything has changed, jump in the wayback machine to the 19th century and look at how business was conducted. The problem isn't corporate greed, that is a constant. The change we cannot deal with is competition.

Competition is bad......from a business standpoint. Competition is bad............from an employee standpoint. The more competition you have, the less your product(or labor) is worth. The US has competition on all fronts from every country that we deal with. Every American worker is in competition with every worker worldwide that makes the same product. If the driving factor is cost, then any product (or labor) with a higher cost is at a disadvantage. Now many computer parts are made in the US? How many I-phones? How many laptops? Of all the high tech products, how many are US made? Intel and AMD have some FABS here, but otherwise, what?

For the most part, the US has lost its advantage. Young workers today, who think they are going to enjoy the same benefits as their baby boomer counterparts, are so fucked. I guess taking care of old people is a growing industry, and powered wheelchairs........as long as medicare picks up the $4K bill on those things. Another govt. subsidy I suppose.

Get used to a lower standard of living. it is inevitable. We will probably have nets around all of our buildings like Foxconn soon.

The competition thing is 100% - it's partly globalization and partly greed. Globalization is fine - it's inevitable really, but the greed isn't good and it's hurting the way globalization is being carried out.
Old 09-27-2012, 10:12 PM lollersk8s is offline  
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:53 PM Zombiedinejad is offline  
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The competition thing is 100% - it's partly globalization and partly greed. Globalization is fine - it's inevitable really, but the greed isn't good and it's hurting the way globalization is being carried out.

The way I see it, people used to compete to see who made the best product. The better product was purchased most, and therefore made the most money. Now, whoever makes the most money as a company is all that matters. Quality is just an afterthought. It's fucking depressing, and outright vile. Good, quality workers here in America somehow cannot compete with China based on the cost of labor? Really? How much are you taking home, Mr. CEO? Can you not sacrifice some of your millions so that decent folks can have not only a job, but some security in that job, as well? Or will your ego get in the way again? Will it take the utter ruin of a nation in order for you to change your ways? The time is nearing. Judgement is coming. The opportunities you deprive today will be taken tomorrow, one way or another. Take heed, and show appreciation to those who made you what you have become while you still can. /repentyesinners
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Old 09-28-2012, 12:43 AM Jack's raging erection is offline  
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The way I see it, people used to compete to see who made the best product. The better product was purchased most, and therefore made the most money. Now, whoever makes the most money as a company is all that matters. Quality is just an afterthought. It's fucking depressing, and outright vile. Good, quality workers here in America somehow cannot compete with China based on the cost of labor? Really? How much are you taking home, Mr. CEO? Can you not sacrifice some of your millions so that decent folks can have not only a job, but some security in that job, as well? Or will your ego get in the way again? Will it take the utter ruin of a nation in order for you to change your ways? The time is nearing. Judgement is coming. The opportunities you deprive today will be taken tomorrow, one way or another. Take heed, and show appreciation to those who made you what you have become while you still can. /repentyesinners


The "optimizing" of profits really does cross a lot of ethical lines. Global scale competition is inevitable though. The world has gotten a lot smaller over the centuries and especially recent years.

The Chinese can put something together equally as well as we can - including making a quality product. They follow the guidelines, it's not really up to them. The guidelines of course being centered around savings rather than a quality product, which was the whole point of outsourcing in the first place.

We are in a tough adjustment period right now. USA suddenly has to share it's labor pool with the rest of the world and it takes more qualifications than ever to get noticed. Simply being white isn't enough and you see a lot of outcries about that. My answer was always the same - if you're very upset about Mexicans taking your job, maybe you should have something that sets you apart like more experience or better qualifications.

It isn't anyone's fault for you not being able to stand out. Upsetting but true.

In a nutshell the problem really IS leadership. Our leaders don't lead - they pander to popular opinions to harvest votes. Which is a shame because a lot of them do have good ideas and have a world-wide perspective and inside knowledge that very few of us can bring to the table.
Old 09-28-2012, 02:48 PM lollersk8s is offline  
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The "optimizing" of profits really does cross a lot of ethical lines. Global scale competition is inevitable though. The world has gotten a lot smaller over the centuries and especially recent years.

The Chinese can put something together equally as well as we can - including making a quality product. They follow the guidelines, it's not really up to them. The guidelines of course being centered around savings rather than a quality product, which was the whole point of outsourcing in the first place.

We are in a tough adjustment period right now. USA suddenly has to share it's labor pool with the rest of the world and it takes more qualifications than ever to get noticed. Simply being white isn't enough and you see a lot of outcries about that. My answer was always the same - if you're very upset about Mexicans taking your job, maybe you should have something that sets you apart like more experience or better qualifications.

It isn't anyone's fault for you not being able to stand out. Upsetting but true.

In a nutshell the problem really IS leadership. Our leaders don't lead - they pander to popular opinions to harvest votes. Which is a shame because a lot of them do have good ideas and have a world-wide perspective and inside knowledge that very few of us can bring to the table.

Even then, once you get more experience/better qualifications, other people will be doing the same, so it still would not matter. There has to be a conscious decision to help others. That's why I think the game is over. I see diminishing returns on investment in qualifications and gaining experience, combined with a lack of leadership, or rather, an abundance of dictatorship via corporate interests. They take and take to the point where there isn't any more to take. Then what happens? Collapse of the status quo for sure, but what comes after is extremely uncertain.
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:46 PM Jack's raging erection is offline  
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The way I see it, people used to compete to see who made the best product. The better product was purchased most, and therefore made the most money. Now, whoever makes the most money as a company is all that matters. Quality is just an afterthought. It's fucking depressing, and outright vile. Good, quality workers here in America somehow cannot compete with China based on the cost of labor? Really? How much are you taking home, Mr. CEO? Can you not sacrifice some of your millions so that decent folks can have not only a job, but some security in that job, as well? Or will your ego get in the way again? Will it take the utter ruin of a nation in order for you to change your ways? The time is nearing. Judgement is coming. The opportunities you deprive today will be taken tomorrow, one way or another. Take heed, and show appreciation to those who made you what you have become while you still can. /repentyesinners

In case your entire post is not sarcasm then................Just no.

CEOs have not changed. Greed has not changed. The change has been the relative value of the worker. A worker, like any product, has to have value in order to be hired, unless they work for the govt. If I can find someone in Mexico to do the same job for 1/3 the price, guess where/who I am going to hire because I damn well know where my competition is.

Cost has been and will be the driving factor. NASA's Apollo moon program.........contracted to the lowest bidder. Shuttle.....yup. Steel in those railroad tracks..yup. Lowest bidder always gets the contract unless the bidding is fixed.

It is a problem that cannot be fixed, because in essence, there is nothing wrong. What has happened is the inevitable consequenceof globalization. If you want "Made in USA" goods, then you damn well better find money from the consumer to pay the premium. Our fed govt is powerless. All it can do is more harm by being more proactive.

When the time comes where a US worker can offer something a foreign worker cannot (that includes price) then the situation will change.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:54 AM punisher is offline  
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lollersk8s
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In case your entire post is not sarcasm then................Just no.

CEOs have not changed. Greed has not changed. The change has been the relative value of the worker. A worker, like any product, has to have value in order to be hired, unless they work for the govt. If I can find someone in Mexico to do the same job for 1/3 the price, guess where/who I am going to hire because I damn well know where my competition is.

Cost has been and will be the driving factor. NASA's Apollo moon program.........contracted to the lowest bidder. Shuttle.....yup. Steel in those railroad tracks..yup. Lowest bidder always gets the contract unless the bidding is fixed.

It is a problem that cannot be fixed, because in essence, there is nothing wrong. What has happened is the inevitable consequenceof globalization. If you want "Made in USA" goods, then you damn well better find money from the consumer to pay the premium. Our fed govt is powerless. All it can do is more harm by being more proactive.

When the time comes where a US worker can offer something a foreign worker cannot (that includes price) then the situation will change.


Greed is indeed a constant.

Another problem with the American worker not standing out is their background. I heard on MSNBC that we graduate nine lawyers for every one engineer, roughly. People major in entomology and women's studies then wonder why they can't compete with foreigners that hold useful degrees in technology, accounting, and nuclear physics.

Apple uses a design firm in Taiwan, and assembles in China. Parts come from all around the world. To be "well off" in this ever shrinnking world you really do have to bring something special to the table besides feelings of entitlement.

What doesn't help of course is whatever money the government does get in taxes gets pissed away instead of being reinvested into our own country. We fight other people's wars, stick our nose into every civil war we can and then deplore institutions which help keep teenagers from becoming pregnant.

Most average US citizens lack a global perspective - they are nationalistic, religious and generally speaking very conservative. In a global and progressive world this is understandably causing a lot of friction. Take the teabaggers for instance. They want to take America back. Back to a certain time period that is. They blame the president for not having the ability to time travel. Their candidate can apparently, and clearly living in the past is better. Women aren't people and children should work from the age of 11 instead of getting brain washed in some liberal educatin' system.

In short people don't fully understand the problem, much less argue for the right solution.
Old 09-29-2012, 11:26 AM lollersk8s is offline  
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CEOs have not changed. Greed has not changed.

But now, they must! They produce product for who? Americans, generally. We're the number one consumer nation in the world. Yet, they would rather hire non-Americans.
So, we have Americans buying their stuff, but no jobs to help them continue the consumption cycle. This loop has been broken. The feedback, eliminated. The system is broken. The fix is not easy. Our economy must contract significantly, and drastically before true recovery can begin, if this course continues. That's why unemployment is stuck at ~8%. That's why Romney is telling you to get two jobs. That's why welfare is such a big government program now. The economy, as a whole, must contract if we maintain the status quo, and there is no avoiding it. Period. End of statement. That's right. Quantitative easing (QE) is a waste of time. Those bailouts? A waste. Both are only delaying the inevitable.

However, there is still time to change. The responsibility for that change rests directly on the rich elite. They are the ones with the entitlement issues. They preach to you that the money is theirs, and that you should get your own. Well, for currency to retain its value, it must be in limited supply. Therefore, wages must rise, and help those people with more money than they can ever use, than their children could ever use, and their grandchildren could ever use, dispose of their income. When you hoard billions of dollars for yourself, you have essentially removed that currency from circulation. The QE programs, I feel, are working to replace that lost capacity. This should give you some idea of how much wealth is going to waste in some Swiss bank account, or gets tied up in some corporation's questionable accounting practices.

The QE programs will eventually catch up with the elite. As the currency becomes worthless, they will begin to feel the pain, even with all of the wealth conservation strategies available. Unfortunately, they will be the last to feel that pain, and it will be far, far too late to take action. On the other hand, we may get lucky and have some drastic change where they take a big hit this Christmas season, and realize that they probably need to hire some Americans so they can buy more stuff. You're essentially a slave to money anyway, in their eyes. They just haven't realized how the feedback loop works quite yet. I find it ludicrous that these so-called elites have forgotten that, but that was the generation that blew off high school and barely made it through college. Peace, love, and drugs. Gotta fight the man, man. Now, that shithead way of thinking leaves them saying they can keep all of the money and let everyone else fight for what's left over. I do recall from history class a certain country, with a certain royal, who would rather let them eat cake. That turned out well for the elite, didn't it? Bastards got what they rightfully deserved. That may be the only solution we will have at some point in the present. I'm still holding out for a less drastic solution.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:52 PM Jack's raging erection is offline  
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Insanity is talking about a spilled cup of water on the deck of a sinking ship. Which is what the republicans constantly do.

Stop calling them "republicans": they're CORPORATISTS, pure and simple.

And they're throwing out every bit of shock-value incendiary inflammatory propaganda to keep us from seeing they're lining us up for yet another financial buttfucking.

"Hey, drink Our koolaid, believe Our , forget the fact We're the 1% and We want ALL YOUR BASE BELONG TO US--I mean, We want ALL your money, and have you live in abject impoverished servitude, because WE are better than YOU, and deserve to be crushed under Our feet. Just forget logic, do as We say, and everyone will get hurt."

There's more of us than there are of Them... It's time we showed 'em who's boss....
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:53 PM Tex Arcana is offline  
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Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
The government spending is mostly to counter act the effects of the failure of the "private sector" (in reality the banking and finance sectors of the economy). The elite have managed to totally shift the narrative and focus of the current economic crisis from its actual source (capital) to the symptom (massively increased government spending). The economic policy of the government would be largely the same if Corporatists were in charge in any case, since both parties will follow convention in economic crisis (basically what the financial elite tell them to do).

fixed, but essentially correct.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:56 PM Tex Arcana is offline  
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Tex Arcana
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Originally Posted by lollersk8s View Post
The "optimizing" of profits really does cross a lot of ethical lines. Global scale competition is inevitable though. The world has gotten a lot smaller over the centuries and especially recent years.

The Chinese can put something together equally as well as we can - including making a quality product. They follow the guidelines, it's not really up to them. The guidelines of course being centered around savings rather than a quality product, which was the whole point of outsourcing in the first place.

We are in a tough adjustment period right now. USA suddenly has to share it's labor pool with the rest of the world and it takes more qualifications than ever to get noticed. Simply being white isn't enough and you see a lot of outcries about that. My answer was always the same - if you're very upset about Mexicans taking your job, maybe you should have something that sets you apart like more experience or better qualifications.

It isn't anyone's fault for you not being able to stand out. Upsetting but true.

In a nutshell the problem really IS leadership. Our leaders don't lead - they pander to popular opinions to harvest votes. Which is a shame because a lot of them do have good ideas and have a world-wide perspective and inside knowledge that very few of us can bring to the table.

We don't HAVE to share our labor pool--if we did like every other nation that's raping us for every dime we spend, we'd have major-league national protectionisms that would keep a majority of those jobs HERE, along with our manufacturing.

Instead, the fatcats take bribes to outsource our shit, the corporatist politicians take bribes to change the laws to allow outsourcing, the religulous nuts take blow, blowjobs and bribes (with a few altar boy asses thrown in for flavor) to convince the sheeple that the New Murkin Aristocracy (Corporatists) are the New Messiahs, and must be infallible.

And we drink the koolaid, suck their dicks, get poisoned by their shitty products, food, and idealisms, and keep letting them fuck us over and over.

I'm tired of being fucked.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:12 PM Tex Arcana is offline  
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