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dio
 
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To wrap it all up..

I want to have a commentary and dicussion on this video:

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


As is typical, since I've read so much McKenna and listened to so many lectures, and generally understand his viewpoint from first hand experience, I shall be taking the side of representing him.
Old 11-03-2012, 12:03 AM dio is offline  
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grjr
 
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well, first of all you're nuts

I do agree that the world most of us live in is an artificial one and separates us from nature and a more fulfilling life. Thinking that drugs are the answer, that they are going to get rid of the artificial world that has been created... that's just asinine. Drugs aren't going to solve anything. I'm not against drugs, I don't think they should be criminalized as they are now, but you aren't going to solve any real world problems by taking drugs. What have you accomplished so far?
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:26 AM grjr is offline  
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pyramid
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Good point about shaming people about sex.

The rest of it is crap. You are free to live how you want in western society.

Most people choose not to live in smelly hippie communes where every night people sit around the drum circle and talk about how wonderful the world would be if we just did away with personal property and money.

Also, if you think that some hippie commune and hallucinogens are ever going to take us to the stars in any real sense, you must be hallucinating.
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:44 AM pyramid is offline  
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dio
 
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Originally Posted by grjr View Post
well, first of all you're nuts

I do agree that the world most of us live in is an artificial one and separates us from nature and a more fulfilling life. Thinking that drugs are the answer, that they are going to get rid of the artificial world that has been created... that's just asinine. Drugs aren't going to solve anything. I'm not against drugs, I don't think they should be criminalized as they are now, but you aren't going to solve any real world problems by taking drugs. What have you accomplished so far?

correction, psychedellics.

This distinction must be made to remain accurate in this context.

Psychedellics are ego dissolving drugs. Whereas other drugs are ego enforcing drugs.

For example, have three shots of silver tequila and you will believe you are the FUCKING MAN. Have a line of cocaine and you will think you own the world. Have a pill of methamphetamine and you will think you are the absolute king, on a level above everyone else.

On the contrary, have 5 grams of mushrooms and you will most likely be in the fetal position praying to god, your mother, your father, anyone you have ever hurt for forgiveness and a new vision fo life. Have 600 ug of LSD and you will be in the lotus position awaiting transcendece from Lord Indra. You might think I'm exaggerating here, but I'm really not.

There is a split here, ego-enforcing drugs and ego-destroying drugs. Psychedellics destroy ego.

Now with that laid out, as for your question if the world is an artificial one, and that artificial world separates us from nature, which ultimately holds the answers to a more fulfilling life. Well artificiality IS ego, anything artificial is held in place by ego. You dissolve ego and out the door goes ANYTHING artificial. In this way, 'drugs' in general don't get rid of ego. You can't shoot up meth, or heroin, or take a shot of tequila, or take a bong rip and destroy your ego. However, 500 ug of pure LSD will demolish your ego, and with that anything artificial will fly out the door, allowing you to see the world which is not artificial.

Now as for the question what have you accomplished so far? Under what pretext of which drug? I am sure there are millions of ADD prescript kiddies that will tell you amphetamine is the GREATEST thing in the world for accomplishing shit, it is an ego enforcing drug, it keeps it place artificial belief structures, artificial ideals, artificial viewpoints of self, and you get ALOT of shit of done on it. However this isn't about ego-reinforcement and artificial perceptions of reality, that video was about psychedelics, ego-destroying drugs, drugs that prohibit your brain from perceiving anything artificial. Which with a destroyed ego, what has one accomplished? Anything worth boasting ones ego about? No, OBVIOUSLY, not. The question you pose is downright silly to me by it's very nature. Has one perhaps gained clear perception of nature beyond the artificiality of culture? I would assume yes, and to anyone who has had such a substance, the notion of anything but that would be downright moronic, but to the moronic mind that is bound to statistics, disregarding first-hand experience, there are not any statistics to be found on the subject. So have specific individuals accomplished after seeing beyond the artificiality of culture? I think the question is stupid. I could quote and point out many a people who had LSD to go on to accomplish great things. On the contrary I could quote and point out many a people who had LSD to do nothing but work at subway their whole life. To notion that LSD is going to be some make or break it substance as per the success of an individual is absurd. That is dependent on the individual, entirely. However despite an individuals success, which is dependent purely on the individual and has nothing to do with what drugs they take in their life, do you think being able to peak your head outside the illusion and artificiality of culture, to see clearly JUST ONCE has value for everyone? I think it does.
Old 11-03-2012, 04:21 AM dio is offline  
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dio
 
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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
Most people choose not to live in smelly hippie communes where every night people sit around the drum circle and talk about how wonderful the world would be if we just did away with personal property and money.

Also, if you think that some hippie commune and hallucinogens are ever going to take us to the stars in any real sense, you must be hallucinating.

This is an imaginary extrapolation of what he said.

Not a completely unfounded one knowing McKenna's life habits himself.

But knowing everything McKenna has ever said, he had no inclination to believe everyone should be in hippie communes, around a drum circle every night, doing away with everything society has created.

McKenna more clearly saw himself in the lineage of Alduous Huxley, who more than anything, believed that there must be an institution in culture constructured, and respected, that would allow worthy minds, philosophers, artists, metaphysicians, mathematicians, writers etc. if they so choose, the option, and ability to venture into the deepest of psychedelic realms in order to pull back theories, artwork, stories, ideas and philosophies that could essentially be of help in guiding the greater good of culture and society. If you ever hear McKenna arguing for the validity of psychedellics it isn't to devolve ALL of culture into a psychedellic mix-mash of random people fucking and hippie drum circles, rather it is to get culture to recognize the potential value of a shamanistic institution that can potentially offer value to culture.

It was Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters who wanted to devolve all of America into an LSD orgy, of insanity and people freaking out running around crazy. Aldous Huxley and ultimately McKenna wanted it reserved for the literary scholars, the spiritually enlightened and seeking, the artists, the philosophers, the musicians.
Old 11-03-2012, 04:27 AM dio is offline  
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pyramid
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come now. I may exaggerate for the purposes of comedy but his basic premise is that society as a whole needs to eschew the constructs of modern western society and regress to mud hut dwelling, shroom taking, shamanism believers.

That path is how we all end up living in smelly hippie communes who sit around and take drugs and never do anything useful or constructive.

The society Huxley speaks of is here. We are still in the process of constructing it. There are baby steps. There are growing pains. But the society we live in has already been to the moon and beyond.

The society mckenna envisions would never take us there in a million years.

I'm sorry but your messiah is a fraud.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:01 AM pyramid is offline  
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A psychedelic person, is not willing to be, a good citizen-Or a good ANYTHING, that is defined by somebody else. I mean, a shaman is a true, anarchist.

ANARCHIST.

ANARCHIST.

ANARCHIST.

834 do moar shroomz 4eva lololololololololololol

Wisdom of the surrogate manchu tree. Consciousness expandingexpandingexpandinpanpanpanpanding. Bursting.

Where is Mister Bubbles' cat?
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:57 AM Killer_B is offline  
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lollersk8s
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The video is 8 minutes, I don't think it's worth watching. Yay, nay?
Old 11-03-2012, 04:34 PM lollersk8s is offline  
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dio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
come now. I may exaggerate for the purposes of comedy but his basic premise is that society as a whole needs to eschew the constructs of modern western society and regress to mud hut dwelling, shroom taking, shamanism believers.

That path is how we all end up living in smelly hippie communes who sit around and take drugs and never do anything useful or constructive.

The society Huxley speaks of is here. We are still in the process of constructing it. There are baby steps. There are growing pains. But the society we live in has already been to the moon and beyond.

The society mckenna envisions would never take us there in a million years.

I'm sorry but your messiah is a fraud.

No thats an extrapolation from incorrect starting points. Your extrapolation would be accurate for a different psychedellic character like Ken Kesey. You have to understand that in the psychedellic counter culture there were, as I see it, three general viewpoints, three general 'movements' that developed, or you could say three different ways people dealt with what LSD showed. Most people want to merge these all into one, the 'hippie', or assume they are all one. But the brightly colored hippie running around madly, burned out on speed (those kinds of hippies burnt out on speed, not LSD), comes from the whole general movement that was sort of pinnacled by Ken Kesey.

Now before I get into an analyzation of the dynamics of the psycedellic counter-culture, the question must be asked, why? Our culture generally downplays the significance of this time period because it's a little butt hurt by it, and would like to not admit it. But the psychedellic counter-culture was the most radically unique movement of social change to occur in the last 100 years, and of any great movement, has left a larger lasting impact on our culture than any other movement. It was in many way radically unique to all other great social movements throughout all human history as well, a truly novel phenomena. And that radical uniqueness of the phenomena that occurred is largely due to the new ingredient that was introduced to the mix of human social dynamics, that being LSD, and how it ultimately impacted mass groups of people and caused them to react. You can see the impacts that the movement caused all over of our modern culture today, but it wasn't just ONE impact, there were different responses, resulting in different changes to our current culture.

The three general sects of the psychedellic counter-culture realization, or rather the three differ ways to deal with LSD were as I see it.

1. Absolute and unbounded liberation. This is the Ken Kesey, merry pranksters, acid test, festival groupie crowd, be homeless, but think your a god and do jack shit crowd. LSD would introduce the realization that culture, and all prior belief system are bullshit. This would free people into mass hedonistic pleasure, highly self absorbed. The next costume a person would wear at a musical event was more important than writing or producing anything. This was your stereotypical mass 'hippie', that so many people associated with the movement, because they were the most widely colorful out in the open to be seen by everyone. This is what scares people about LSD. Liberation sounds like a good concept to alot of people, but the truth is our culture is absolutely fucking terrified of unbounded freedom from everything, because they don't feel like they are capable of carving their own path without guidance, which is a left-over imprint of Christianity. This general response to LSD I can see live on rampant in Portland 'hipsters' so to say, it's sort of the root archetype of all modern music festivals, and SOME of rave culture is intertwined with this. If your familiar with the whole circus crowd in Portland, they are pretty much the continued living embodiment of this archetype, Last Thursday on Alberta is built on this archetype. This group doesn't ever produce very much in terms of tangible scientific process, except for an occasional artistic star, or musician, will surface out of it. You can thank this group for psychedelic inclinations in art becoming more prevalent. Really this whole archetype came about as nothing more than a means to extract as much wildly free-wheeling creative energy out of a human as possible. These people are addicted to unbounded imagination. Not only do they not produce anything scientifically objective, they wouldn't want to because it would be something that bounds them and inhibits imagination. Creativity is the only God of this crowd.

So that is 1, I generally call that the Ken Kesey / Merry Pranksters archetype.

2. Some people did not respond with complete unbounding from everything. Some people rather responded with the realization of the earth. The realization and recognition that they are living on a mass conscious entity floating in space. These people may have interest in art, music, like the Kesey archetype does. But the realization of what the earth is, is a far more powerful realization. These are the types of psychedelic people that ended up pushing themselves through college to get some degree in biology, or some kind of alternative medicine, or sustainable farming, or sustainable energy. The modern revival in herbalism, the whole organic food movement, the whole clean energy movement, the whole re-interest and re-obsession with pagan belief structures you can thank this crowd for that. McKenna is largely apart of this crowd. To say this crowd didin't accomplish anything highly tangible I think is ridiculous. They discovered how we can actually heal, and make healthy, our bodies and minds, as earth dwelling creatures. I owe so much personal thanks to this general movement of LSD as I used to have so many seriously debilitating health problems, that I have completely cured by proper diet, and using the right herbal treatments. In this crowds eye, psychedelic plants, make note, plants, not LSD, are considered not drugs or 'fun', they are considered sacred ritual medicine. Many of this crowd I find threw off chemicals like LSD or MDMA, in favor of natural substances. Natural 'medicines'. The viewpoint follows, if you use a natural essential oil like tea tree oil to cure a skin condition. Then why not use a natural oil like hemp oil to cure stomach upset. Then why not use a natural plant like ayahausca to help cure psychological/spiritual distress? Just varying degress of plant, earthen, medicine. There are no longer 'drugs' in this crowd. The earth is the God of this crowd.

That one could generally be termed the McKenna archetype, the earthen archetype. Now don't mistake me here, it's not like McKenna, nor Kesey were 'leaders' of the specific archetype I named them to. Rather, they were just one of the most vocal and prominent figures that were upholding that response to LSD.

Now, for 3.

3. This is sort of the technological, space migration, spacey, eugenics, robotic response to LSD. Which is also intertwined with the Hindu/Buddhist highly spiritual 'transcendent' or 'ascension' response to LSD. As the act of meditating, and all the Buddhist meditation techniques are essentially techniques to train the consciousness how to deal with retaining peace and sanity in long space flight. I personally believe this is what Buddhists and Hindu's have been developing for all these thousands of years. Whereas the western world has been developing the actually technology for space migration, the eastern esoteric traditions have been developing the consciousness that can actually deal with living in an intergalactic space vessel for the entirety of existence, because to retain peace in such a circumstance you are going to have to be a masterful zen monk. So the realization of the transcendental spirit, and what Buddhism is all about is inherently intertwined with the realization of space migration, and with that rampant technological advancement. You can find the likes of Timothy Leary and Steve Jobs in this archetype. This group actually to some degree is in contrast with McKenna's archetype, as this archetype wants to leave the earth, whereas McKenna's archetype wants to stay on earth, but they are co-mutual and necessary. We ourselves actually rest on this archetype, as users of consumer grade electronics, and being gamers. The development of the concept that a computer should be personal, and a mass cultural communication device is heavily intertwined with the psychedellic counterculture. There are old recordings of Timothy Leary's lectures where he would openly announce and introduce the producer, or founder of Activision or Electronic Arts as being in attendance. Early big names of the modern video game industry had involvement with psychedelic counter-culture and were connected to the Leary Archetype. And of course we all know Steve Jobs intertwinement with this subject, if you poke around you can find notes about Bill Gates intertwinement with the psychedellic counter-culture as well but he was more subdued about it. This is the crowd and inclination that I think is simoultaneously the most impactful, and most hidden in our modern counter-culture today. As I think it is personal computing and the internet, which is producing the most lasting impact and change on culture. There is some weird interrelation of all these things, Video Games, Personal Computing, Space Migration, Meditation. Technology is necessary for space migration, as is meditation, and video games push technological advancement, and help bond people to technology, and video games are also in themselves somewhat meditative. This area is bit more hairy to describe because in a way it's more cutting edge, and there is less to look back on and categorize, because obviously we haven't got to space. But Apple Computers, alot of the video game industry, any modern social change taking place because of the internet, all sort of rests on this archetype. Which I call the Leary Archetype, largely because he was one of the oldest person upholding this viewpoint, and also the first person to see, and start openly stating how the coming age of personal computing is going to change culture. The God of this archetype is technological advancement, things that increase human global communication and things that get use closer to space. Or more specifically the God of this archetype is that sort alien glowing buddha type figure floating in hyperspace that it seems everyone is to insecure to admit that they saw, but is somehow the collective conscious projected manifestation of the future direction of human evolution. I actually consider myself to be more resting in this archetype than any other.

So with that all said, I hope you have a better understanding of the differing sects of the psychedellic counter-culture, and why to me, it seems you are confusing and mixing the Kesey and McKenna archetypes. A proper extrapolation of McKenna's philosophy will end you up with alot of highly proactive research in the realm of natural phenomena, sustainable living practices, biology and natural medicine. Which people who studied these things are largely the type of people McKenna drew to his lectures, and he spent his time with. So in a way when you jokingly say 'McKenna is my messiah', you are more correct than you think. And it isn't McKenna as a single human individual, but rather the 'McKenna Archetype', or rather the 'Realization of the Gaian Concioussness Archetype' is the Messiah, which isn't a single person, McKenna was just one of the most well-spoken from this archetype. But this archetype includes thousands of people. And they literally are Messiahs because they are literally saving the earth, and how we live on it, and live with it. They are literally saving the lives of the rest of humanity, by introducing them to proper diet, proper medicine, and sustainable living.

NOW, that hopefully you understand all that. This can be said in a context which you will understand it.

The greater mass of society needs to eschew the constructs of modern western society not so that they can go sit in mud huts. But rather so we can actually focus on accomplishing the shit that needs to actually be accomplished, rather than dicking around with all the bullshit that our culture pushes in front of us as shit that needs to be dealt with. Our culture and society is grossly inefficient, and poorly focused. People are arguing more about whether or not two men can get married when we are polluting the air with billions of cars. This is shit brained thinking, but it's culturally acceptable that a person put more mental power to moral debate of homosexuality, than how to actually solve the problems that would entail us to live a more beneficial, bountiful life. With these presidential candidate debates, our culture puts in front of us the idea that what we need to be thinking about is abortion legality, gay marriage legality, putting patches on an education system that just needs to be completely rewritten, for how long do we need to kill undeserving brown people in third world countries, whether or not poor kids deserve health care. These thing are not subjects of debate. These things are plainly obvious when one just pulls their head out of their ass. And McKenna believed that psychedellic drugs were one of the best things to do this, and by clearing away the shit, western culture, we can actually get on with more efficiently doing what needs to be done, however you do that.

If your in the Kesey archetype, you may end up in a commune doing drugs, and painting, and doing little hipster art shows.

If your in the McKenna Archetype you may end up cataloging and preserving medicinal plants (what he did in his later life), or exploring sustainable living practices.

If your in the Leary Archetype, you'll probably end up programming something.

I think we can all agree that cultural assumption, cultural media brainwashing and left over useless traditions are a heavy anchor of bullshit that is holding back our progress. Really this thread is to discuss how to best get rid of that anchor of bullshit. Specifically in relation to McKenna who believed psychedellics were the best way to drop the anchor. Largely because he is in the Gaian archetype and the earth's plants are considered 'medicine' necessary to heal. But any ideas are open subject.

Last edited by dio; 11-03-2012 at 04:49 PM..
Old 11-03-2012, 04:34 PM dio is offline  
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Straw Man
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Old 11-03-2012, 04:54 PM Straw Man is offline  
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lol that post was 2200 words. Nobody is going to read that.
Old 11-03-2012, 06:23 PM Gibonius is offline  
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dio
 
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This fool should have his pit posting privs taken away.
Old 11-03-2012, 06:26 PM dio is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
lol that post was 2200 words. Nobody is going to read that.

And it took 30 minutes to write, so I hope someone does.

However on the flipside, it did let me get out of my brain a thought that has been brewing for a while that wasn't very coherent.

It really perturbs me that the psychedellic counter-culture is glossed over in our culture, I mean how the hell can someone understand how America got from 1945 state of culture, to today's state of culture without including the greatest social and concioussness revolution in it's full understanding?
Old 11-03-2012, 06:35 PM dio is offline  
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#13  

Straw Man
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And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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i thought you didn't believe in authority, how come that doesn't translate to me posting an honest opinion of your bull shit and you wanting to silence my honest opinion


(it really is a honest opinion of your stupid gay ramblings no one really gives a shit about)
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:05 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Xcric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dio View Post
This fool should have his pit posting privs taken away.

oh sweet irony.
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Old 11-03-2012, 10:24 PM Xcric is offline  
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