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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by Tex Arcana View Post
Post thermodynamic balance analysis of the atmosphere, or .

You're trying to sound smart but it's not working.

This or some variation of it is the standard figure for the Earth's energy balance. Got one of those in my office. Might also see something like this showing the effect of human contributions.

I don't really study "global warming" but I am part of the effort to build out the carbon observation network. I'm designing cheap(er) carbon dioxide sensors so we can get a more precise picture of global CO2 levels and do regional monitoring in the future. Also do some measurements to support satellite sensing for orbital monitoring of CO2 (and other species).
Old 02-16-2013, 10:02 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
You're trying to sound smart but it's not working.

This or some variation of it is the standard figure for the Earth's energy balance. Got one of those in my office. Might also see something like this showing the effect of human contributions.

I don't really study "global warming" but I am part of the effort to build out the carbon observation network. I'm designing cheap(er) carbon dioxide sensors so we can get a more precise picture of global CO2 levels and do regional monitoring in the future. Also do some measurements to support satellite sensing for orbital monitoring of CO2 (and other species).

Meaningless cartoons.

And my point is valid: you really have no fucking idea what's actually going on, or why. You work for a place that profits from fearwhoring the environment, with so little data and understanding that a large majority of what you spout is make-believe to scare the sheeple into coughing up more money for your junk science.

Just sayin'
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:13 PM Tex Arcana is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by Tex Arcana View Post
Meaningless cartoons.
Of course

A picture is worth a thousand words. That answers the question you asked, even if you don't know it (and you don't, since you have no fucking clue what you're talking about).

Quote:
And my point is valid: you really have no fucking idea what's actually going on, or why.
Oh? Prove it. I guarantee I can answer any (meaningful) question you can ask, or point out why it's meaningless. I might just link you to other people who have already answered your question (since you're too dumb to come up with anything novel I'm sure), but there you go.
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You work for a place that profits from fearwhoring the environment,
I work for the government, so nobody is making any money off of this. We'd be getting paid to study something, and we're not getting any more money in our pockets because we happen to be studying this particular thing. Career option 2 for me is applying the same technology to oil pipeline monitoring, so it's not like I'm some crazed ideologue here.
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with so little data and understanding that a large majority of what you spout is make-believe to scare the sheeple into coughing up more money for your junk science.

Just sayin'
And you know this because of your VAST understanding of the subject

Come on though, demonstrate some knowledge. Other than, you know, giving me homework and trying to look smart without actually saying anything. I'm not going to "prove" global warming; there's more to it than anyone could possibly describe at once. It's a 100+ year old field.
Old 02-16-2013, 10:39 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Straw Man
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nice to see there's always someone to substitute for the village idiot that is gone

thanks tex
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:04 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Tex Arcana
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Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
nice to see there's always someone to substitute for the village idiot that is gone

thanks tex

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Old 02-16-2013, 11:16 PM Tex Arcana is offline  
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Tex Arcana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Of course

A picture is worth a thousand words. That answers the question you asked, even if you don't know it (and you don't, since you have no fucking clue what you're talking about).


Oh? Prove it. I guarantee I can answer any (meaningful) question you can ask, or point out why it's meaningless. I might just link you to other people who have already answered your question (since you're too dumb to come up with anything novel I'm sure), but there you go.

I work for the government, so nobody is making any money off of this. We'd be getting paid to study something, and we're not getting any more money in our pockets because we happen to be studying this particular thing. Career option 2 for me is applying the same technology to oil pipeline monitoring, so it's not like I'm some crazed ideologue here.


And you know this because of your VAST understanding of the subject

Come on though, demonstrate some knowledge. Other than, you know, giving me homework and trying to look smart without actually saying anything. I'm not going to "prove" global warming; there's more to it than anyone could possibly describe at once. It's a 100+ year old field.

Wow, 100 years of, what, exactly? Weather measurements? That a majority during the early part of said century were inaccurate, missing, or fudged? A science that, tho laudable, really had no idea what was going on, for three-quarters of said century? And I question the "understanding" of the last quarter.

Yes, I don't have much proof other than what I've observed, read, and realized on my own: NO. ONE. HAS. A. REMOTE. FUCKING. CLUE. There are so many variables that even slaving every computer on the planet together to run the simulations (made by that most imperfect of creature: man) wouldn't even get close to the reality.

It's sheer arrogance on your part to think you have "the answer". No one does. Yes, we learn more and more every day. But if any of you have the least little bit of humility, y'all will realize that you don't have "the answers", and you likely never will. If y'all had any decency, y'all wouldn't stand up there screaming "THE EARTH IS GONNA BURN UP IF WE DON'T STOP FARTING!!"


Quick question: explain why taking plant fertilizer out of the air is a good idea?
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People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.--V


Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
--John Hobbs


~~~ ~~~ Tea[m] Pyratex ~~~ ~~~
Old 02-16-2013, 11:24 PM Tex Arcana is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Wow, 100 years of, what, exactly? Weather measurements? That a majority during the early part of said century were inaccurate, missing, or fudged? A science that, tho laudable, really had no idea what was going on, for three-quarters of said century? And I question the "understanding" of the last quarter.

Yes, I don't have much proof other than what I've observed, read, and realized on my own: NO. ONE. HAS. A. REMOTE. FUCKING. CLUE. There are so many variables that even slaving every computer on the planet together to run the simulations (made by that most imperfect of creature: man) wouldn't even get close to the reality.

It's sheer arrogance on your part to think you have "the answer". No one does. Yes, we learn more and more every day. But if any of you have the least little bit of humility, y'all will realize that you don't have "the answers", and you likely never will. If y'all had any decency, y'all wouldn't stand up there screaming "THE EARTH IS GONNA BURN UP IF WE DON'T STOP FARTING!!"
All that to say "HEY GUYS I DON'T UNDERSTAND GLOBAL WARMING SO I'M GOING TO PRETEND IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!"

The arrogance quip is funny, coming from your own apparent stance that since you don't understand something, it can't possible exist and nobody else could possibly have a better level of understanding. It's not "arrogant" to try to understand nature (classic religious thinking there, dio would be proud). That's just what science does. Why would it be arrogant to think that tens of thousands of smart people working for a century might be able to figure out something like the functioning of a planetary climate?

Turns out we've done a pretty good job on climate. The models are not perfect but they're a lot better than you claim. Beyond that, there's really no doubt on the basic tenet: increasing levels of greenhouse gases, released by man, are causing the planet to become warmer. That's the main point of AGW and it's pretty much incontrovertible.
Quote:
Quick question: explain why taking plant fertilizer out of the air is a good idea?
Because, among other things, it's making the Earth's surface retain more heat and making the oceans more acidic. One potentially good consequence doesn't outweigh all the other bad ones.



Really though, what even is your stance here? There's only a couple options:
Global warming is not happening
Global warming is happening but people aren't causing it
Global warming is happening and people are causing most of it
We have no idea what's happening because everyone is as stupid as Tex
Old 02-17-2013, 09:28 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Straw Man
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the village idiot has a point, no one knows how anything works


thats why things like montreal protocol are happygolucky skiense environazi money machines that do not work

***insert time magazine front page from the 1970's***









e: regarding the mtl protocol, this is online and it's fucking hilarious
http://www.gcrio.org/gccd//gcc-digest/1995/d95oct18.htm
it's essentially the village idiot tex arcana, only with the added bonus that he is here parroting 20 year old arguments that fucking sucked the day they were made
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Last edited by RuHo; 02-17-2013 at 10:54 AM..
Old 02-17-2013, 10:27 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Oh? Prove it. I guarantee I can answer any (meaningful) question you can ask, or point out why it's meaningless. I might just link you to other people who have already answered your question (since you're too dumb to come up with anything novel I'm sure), but there you go.

You can "answer" like some priest can answer questions about God - they themselves believe their own BS.
Old 02-17-2013, 02:31 PM SamFarber is offline  
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Gibonius - how do you even measue if the Earth is warming or not? This is glossed over. You have no way of measuring it - that is why we hear it is both warming and cooling at the same time.

Oh, and you think weather stations in parking lots are a good idea?

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/climate...ed-parking-lot
Old 02-17-2013, 02:39 PM SamFarber is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Gibonius - how do you even measue if the Earth is warming or not? This is glossed over. You have no way of measuring it - that is why we hear it is both warming and cooling at the same time.
Are you fucking serious? We have no way of measuring...temperature? Ever hear of this thing called a "thermometer"? Not that that is the only way of measuring temperature nor even the only one used, but goddamit this is one of the stupidest points I've ever seen anyone use.

Satellites measure the temperature across the entire slice of the atmosphere, which can potentially be misleading. The upper atmosphere is indeed cooling a bit, but the surface temps are what we care about. Those are easy to measure, and are indeed going up. We can measure temperature at any point in the atmosphere using balloons and/or aircraft and have done that too.

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Oh, and you think weather stations in parking lots are a good idea?

http://www.ihatethemedia.com/climate...ed-parking-lot
Oh wow, an anecdote. Good thing there are tens of thousands of other measuring stations and scientists are smart enough to consider factors like "cities are warmer", so that's pretty much fucking irrelevant.

Also, to further my point that there's nothing new under the sun and you guys are just repeating memes:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/urba...and-effect.htm

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Originally Posted by SamFarber View Post
You can "answer" like some priest can answer questions about God - they themselves believe their own BS.

I don't need to call on faith. I can provide actual evidence.


Again, irony. The OP of this thread was about how it's been proven that the anti-AGW movement is astroturf. There's a group of rich assholes pushing these memes into the public consciousness because action against global warming would be harmful to their interests. There's no factual, reality based argument against the reality of global warming, so they just politicize it and you drones go right along.
Old 02-17-2013, 02:51 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I'll believe this warming when I see it
Old 02-17-2013, 03:50 PM lollersk8s is offline  
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SamFarber
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Are you fucking serious? We have no way of measuring...temperature? Ever hear of this thing called a "thermometer"?

Thank you! That tells me and everyone what a simpleton you are. By your reasoning, you can measure the temperature in one spot on one day and then the next and from that draw a conclusion that the entire Earth is heating or cooling (again, we have people saying both!)

It is the same simpletons who see glaciers melting and think that means something. Glaciers melt EVEN WHEN THEY ARE ADVANCING and growing. People don't see their generation - that is not so obvious.

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Satellites measure the temperature across the entire slice of the atmosphere,
Oh, since when? This is a very recent thing.

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We can measure temperature at any point in the atmosphere using balloons and/or aircraft and have done that too.
Again, so what? It is an insignificant amount of data and collected in a very uncontrolled state.

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Oh wow, an anecdote. Good thing there are tens of thousands of other measuring stations and scientists are smart enough to consider factors like "cities are warmer", so that's pretty much fucking irrelevant.
That isn't the only one - lots of cases of stations like these.

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I can provide actual evidence.
No, you don't. You can't even establish correlaion.

Quote:
Again, irony. The OP of this thread was about how it's been proven that the anti-AGW movement is astroturf. There's a group of rich assholes pushing these memes into the public consciousness because action against global warming would be harmful to their interests. There's no factual, reality based argument against the reality of global warming, so they just politicize it and you drones go right along.
There are rich assholes pushing GW nonsense in the first place. LOTS of money in creating hysteria. LOTs of power.
Old 02-17-2013, 04:00 PM SamFarber is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Thank you! That tells me and everyone what a simpleton you are. By your reasoning, you can measure the temperature in one spot on one day and then the next and from that draw a conclusion that the entire Earth is heating or cooling (again, we have people saying both!)


There are literally tens of thousands of these measuring stations, all over the Earth. Is this somehow a complicated idea for you?

Quote:
Oh, since when? This is a very recent thing.
Since...we had satellites? We can do the same thing for other planets even. Look at the light bouncing off a planet (or bounce your own light off it) and you can measure the temperature. Quantum mechanics in action. Not going to explain statistical mechanics to you, but look up Boltzmann distributions if you want.

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That isn't the only one - lots of cases of stations like these.
Would you look at that, I already refuted that argument in the previous post. Go read the link
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No, you don't. You can't even establish correlaion.
You're just so damned convincing, what with your not knowing anything about the subject and all.

Quote:
There are rich assholes pushing GW nonsense in the first place. LOTS of money in creating hysteria. LOTs of power.
The theory of AGW is 100+ years old. It's steadily advanced from then up until now. The denial movement is very recent, and is directly related to monied interests who want to see it discredited.

Now, sure, there are people trying to make money off the green movement. That doesn't discredit the science, however. Either you can believe that there's a massive worldwide conspiracy of scientists going back 100 years, or you can believe that a small group of rich people is opposed to the idea and is trying to discredit it.

Latter seems more likely to me, although I'm a bit biased since I'm one of those scientists that actually understands this shit.
Old 02-17-2013, 05:06 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Tex Arcana
I am a mean disrespectful person hiding anonymously and need an attitude adjustment.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
All that to say "HEY GUYS I DON'T UNDERSTAND GLOBAL WARMING SO I'M GOING TO PRETEND IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!!"

The arrogance quip is funny, coming from your own apparent stance that since you don't understand something, it can't possible exist and nobody else could possibly have a better level of understanding. It's not "arrogant" to try to understand nature (classic religious thinking there, dio would be proud). That's just what science does. Why would it be arrogant to think that tens of thousands of smart people working for a century might be able to figure out something like the functioning of a planetary climate?

Turns out we've done a pretty good job on climate. The models are not perfect but they're a lot better than you claim. Beyond that, there's really no doubt on the basic tenet: increasing levels of greenhouse gases, released by man, are causing the planet to become warmer. That's the main point of AGW and it's pretty much incontrovertible.

Because, among other things, it's making the Earth's surface retain more heat and making the oceans more acidic. One potentially good consequence doesn't outweigh all the other bad ones.



Really though, what even is your stance here? There's only a couple options:
Global warming is not happening
Global warming is happening but people aren't causing it
Global warming is happening and people are causing most of it
We have no idea what's happening because everyone is as stupid as Tex

I never said it wasn't happening; I said that you and your ilk have no real fucking idea what's going on.

I know it happens. It's been proven multiple times it has happened many times throughout the history of this planet. There was a time it was so warm, Antarctica was a jungle-covered continent, with a metric fuckton of life. There was a time where both the oxygen percentages and the co2 percentages were far higher than they are now. Is that proof that we have "caused global warming"? Unless you made a time machine, and sent back a fuckton of co2 (HOW, I'll never know), humans had ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY NOTHING to do with the holyfuckthatsalot of times this planet has experienced "global warming".

You keep talking about CO2 as a "greenhouse gas": well, so is water vapor. Oxygen is an unstable and dangerous molecule, perhaps we should stop its production altogether. Imagine how much heat oxygen causes!!

Yes, sometimes I exaggerate; but I do it to make a point, and to make people think. I hope they'll THINK about the dogma you (and your opponents) are attempting to shove down our throats, and hopefully they'll realize that stupid things like mechanical devices to I pull co2 out of the air and turn it into oxygen (yes, some idiot has proposed JUST THAT), or blaming cow farts for more greenhouse gas production, is just Plain. Fucking. STUPID.

We already have a problem with idiots ripping out trees and plants, so they can plant fields (instead of using existing non-tree-covered land). Pulling co2 out will just make it tougher on existing plants to fucking LIVE, not to mention the ONE thing we animals MUST have to survive.

Wanna pull co2 out of the air? Plant more trees and plants. Pretty damn environmentally friendly, don'cha think?

Another aspect of environmentalism that's really simple: CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF. it's so simple, isn't it. Yet, we have to use regulation, because humans are fucking cheaters.

This planet goes thru cycles, warm and cold. When it's cold, half the planet is covered with ice, and populations shrink; when it's warm, most of the planet is habitable, and populations explode. And all these things happen in fairly predictable cycles.

Fairly.

Truth is, there's not nearly enough data to make solid predictions. Even the sun, that bastion of constancy, just went thru a cycle of no sunspot production, the effects about which we basically have no clue whatsoever. And there are effects. And now they're back, and with a vengeance. And even THAT cycle will continue ad infinitum.

The planet wobbles in its orbit, the other planets and the moon have strong influences upon that, and we still don't understannd what that causes, because they happen over such a long fucking period of time, we aren't around enough to even have a statistical sample, much less a clue.

100 years is NOTHING, compared to the really big picture that is the history of this planet. You and I will be ground to dust long before ANYONE has the single slightest clue about these questions, and their answers. Or the effects of farting on the couch (talk about a statistically insignificant event).

I applaud anyone who stands up for making sure we keep things clean. I despise people who think they have the answers from their tiny little human snapshot,and are too arrogant to think they might just be wrong.

And you're in that group, there, boudreax.
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Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call destiny.
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:43 PM Tex Arcana is offline  
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