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I don't think hitting kids will improve the situation
Old 04-08-2013, 09:19 PM edplayer is offline  
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Teachers are getting away with more lax standard's as much because of Union interference. as they are because they HAVE to. They MUST relax their standards so mommy and daddy's precious little BRAT, can feel good about himself and make "progress".

Either they let the kid pass, or the parents throw a hissy fit and the teachers get fired. And then suddenly, in college the kids are unprepared, but the colleges give a shit, because they make money selling classes that are degree meaningless, and then the kids reach the work force and find out their employers are not as lax as their teachers were and then end up in deep shit because the employer just fires their asses for being dip shits. And little Johnny can't cry to mommy and Daddy about it.

I don't think the problem is so much relaxed standards as it is that we've extended academic expectations to a wider and wider group of kids, with a corresponding burden on the school systems. We spend a shitload of money and time trying to get the lowest 25% (or whatever) of students to pass all these tests. We spend a shitload trying to get ESL students up to level.

The other two aspects are the Self Esteem Generation (enough said) and all the secondary consequences of the focus on standardized testing. Way too many students never learn how to do anything other than memorize facts, because of a misguided attempt to "hold teachers responsible and raise standards." It's really hard to test for problem solving ability, reasoning, and writing skill, so we accidentally incentivized teachers to stop teaching those things and focus on testing skills. It's totally wrong and it burns kids in college and in the real world.


Beatings, well, there's a HUGE gradient between letting teachers hit kids and the Self Esteem Generation shit. I absolutely would not accept giving a teacher authority to hit kids of mine, mostly because I don't trust them with that power. It's unnecessary at best.
Old 04-08-2013, 10:00 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I don't think hitting kids will improve the situation

Hitting? Can be relative for discipline, and making them actually work in stead of sloughing the fuck off cause they know they won't get in trouble

Lets be blunt as fuck. I was raised in the late 70's and through the 80's as a kid.

I didn't have constant cell contact, I never work a helmet on my bike. Not until near the end did I have video games, and I sure as fuck didn't have paranoid parents breathing down my god damn neck every hour of the day to "protect" me from danger. I lived somehow though, and got out of childhood in one piece.

When i did something wrong. I got in trouble for it. You know; a spanking, grounding, that sort of apparently old fashioned shit. If I brought home bad grades; I got in trouble for it. Lost TV privileges, and again. grounding, etc.

NOW we've reverted to sending the kid to a psychiatrist to see what's wrong. or medicating the shit out of them to keep them calm. And if it continues to be a problem in school, it's because the teachers are to blame, and not engaging them. Nothing to do with the little fuckers ignoring the shit out of the teachers, texting on their phones, and generally acting like little monkeys in class. They disrespect the teachers, ignore what's being taught, and complain when they get bad grades because its the teachers fault.

Am i suggesting taking kids, chaining them up in a room with books and switching the shit out of them every time they miss an answer? No.

But smacking them in the mouth for back talking, once, (only once for the incident, not suggesting abuse here) might get their fucking attention.

I did well in school, because one: I wanted my parents approval, two because I got REWARDED for doing the right thing, and three, bluntly; the fear of retribution should I screw up. Fear of failure doesn't exist anymore, not with kids anyway.

It's only when the real world comes up and knocks the shit out of them. that they suddenly wake up and realize they've fucked up, and the system has let them be screw ups. And usually they stat screaming "Why didn't the teachers do better for me?!?!"

Why?

Cause parents won't fucking LET them, and the kids are self entitled little cunts.
Old 04-08-2013, 10:07 PM gwiber is offline  
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Beatings, well, there's a HUGE gradient between letting teachers hit kids and the Self Esteem Generation shit. I absolutely would not accept giving a teacher authority to hit kids of mine, mostly because I don't trust them with that power. It's unnecessary at best.

There is a massive difference between beatings... and a paddle to the behind. Very massive.

Like I said, no one's suggesting chaining them up and beating them into the dirt.

Though with the way things are today. I doubt I would trust a teacher to hit a kid of mine either, teachers today are mostly products of the very same shit that's effecting kids today too.

I really doubt I could TRUST teachers today to have the common SENSE to know when and HOW to use the right level of force, and realize IF it's required or not.

I can count on two fingers the number of times in the early 80's I got paddled, and on one hand the number of swats I took in each, and I learned my fucking lesson

One, after you ignore your homework a dozen times; you're gonna get swatted, and two. don't spit on another kid (I was 9, sue me).

I listened, and started acting right.
Old 04-08-2013, 10:11 PM gwiber is offline  
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Hitting?


Yeah. When you recommended a good ole ass beating were you talking about something else?


I grew up around the same time as you. I live in CA where you needed parents consent for corporeal punishment and my parents signed it. I don't think that helped me and I'm not sure it would help most people (though it probably would help some).
Old 04-08-2013, 10:47 PM edplayer is offline  
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Yeah. When you recommended a good ole ass beating were you talking about something else?

I equate the hitting term in that respect not to a slap across the mouth.. or paddling. I guess that IS hitting, but it's just not the same as balling a fist up and knocking the crap out of someone. That, isn't called for in any circumstance.

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...and I'm not sure it would help most people (though it probably would help some).

That, would be having Teachers with the wisdom to know when and where to apply things properly, and in what measure if they do.

That's the one major thing I do not think (most) teachers today possess.
Old 04-09-2013, 06:34 AM gwiber is offline  
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However you want to him them I would guess that it would have a small to zero positive effect on most people.

Instead of hitting them I would suggest the parents supervise their study and or homework. I looked up some Nielsen data on tv use and for Americans over the age of 2, 34 hours a week is the average.
Old 04-09-2013, 11:40 AM edplayer is offline  
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I was saying this before it was popular. I said it before some guy wrote a book about it.

yeah but you said this (and probably all that black scholarship stuff) because you are an abject failure that probably couldn't get to college to begin with
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:19 PM Straw Man is offline  
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I'm not familiar with how high schools are currently run but are you saying that it is not encouraged?

When kids are coming into college and need to take a bunch of prerequisite classes they could have taken in high school for free (where they instead, took the easy way out), I don't think there was anyone encouraging them, either at home or at school, to challenge themselves academically. It all starts at home...

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Instead of hitting them I would suggest the parents supervise their study and or homework. I looked up some Nielsen data on tv use and for Americans over the age of 2, 34 hours a week is the average.

That's what my parents did and I'm thankful for it...

Last edited by Vote McCain!; 04-09-2013 at 02:39 PM..
Old 04-09-2013, 02:29 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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I can count on two fingers the number of times in the early 80's I got paddled, and on one hand the number of swats I took in each, and I learned my fucking lesson
I doubt I got spanked more than ten times by my parents, and precisely zero times in school. Nobody did, it was unacceptable to touch a kid by that point (born in early 80s). It never seemed necessary.

It seems odd to me that people are getting nostalgic about corporal punishment in school. Lots of kids, good kids, lived in TERROR of that environment. There's very little evidence that it's effective at doing anything other than making kids scared. Not really the conditions to produce the workers of the future.

Besides, if a kid isn't receiving adequate discipline, encouragement, and value for education at home, no amount of punishment at school is going to turn them around.
Old 04-09-2013, 04:25 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Besides, if a kid isn't receiving adequate discipline, encouragement, and value for education at home, no amount of punishment at school is going to turn them around.

This; I cannot argue with or disagree.

The issue comes hard when the parents DON'T educate, and provide discipline and encouragement, and then it becomes the teacher's faulty the kid is screwing up. It's always someone else' fault, not the parents.

In school for me. it was BOTH. The parents providing help with homework. making sure I did it instead of goofing off, making sure I got into trouble when I screwed up, AND the teachers doing the same thing AT school. And yes that meant fear of the paddle for blowing shit off or misbehaving.

I was in a very odd position. Having been raised 'til I was 8 entirely in rural Louisiana, and then Houston. I was suddenly thrust into a little mill town, right smack in the middle of Pennsylvania.

My problem was never fear of teachers, it was fear of students... thrust a new kid, form the south. with an odd accent, right smack in the middle of am elementary school, filled, with kids who have known each other since, birth, more or less, and you have a recipe for being an outsider to be picked on mercilessly.

In my opinion. the teachers turned a blind eye to how I was treated, because it kept the kids focused on harassing me, and putting me "in my place" instead of misbehaving and fucking off.

A whole lot of those little fuckers deserved to get the shit paddled out of them DAILY, in my opinion. Bullying was not at all recognized as a real issue back then. Those teachers just thought it was harmless "play".

Bullying. is another issue entirely though I suppose.
Old 04-09-2013, 05:22 PM gwiber is offline  
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When kids are coming into college and need to take a bunch of prerequisite classes they could have taken in high school for free (where they instead, took the easy way out), I don't think there was anyone encouraging them, either at home or at school, to challenge themselves academically. It all starts at home...


have you considered that maybe someone did advise and encourage them but that the youth didn't give a fuck?

There were a couple of posts here complaining about the role of high school staff encouraging students to attend college but to me they should play a very minor role in that. If they tell you about it once, that's OK. Two or three times is great. There is no need to repeat the same stuff 15 times. Seriously. If you can't figure that out by yourself you are likely too stupid to really benefit from college anyways...
Old 04-09-2013, 10:52 PM edplayer is offline  
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Guys let me just end this now so this banter can stop.

Human beings have the ability to naturally learn and teach themselves through the naturally developed instincts of curiosity. They do not need to be 'taught' so much as they simply need to be guided, and provided for, and maybe at specific times mentored on specific subjects when they ask.

Given this all you need to do is stick a kid in a social setting with access to all the resources he may need. Computers, internet, technology, art supplies, science supplies, whatever. With enough mentoring adults around to ask questions and maybe keep watch over certain machinery or things that could be dangerous without supervision of someone already trained, then if a kid expresses interest, they can learn that.

This is what needs to happened.

Why?

We are entering into a time now when there is TOO much information, and too much new information, and incredible value is to be had in completely novel discoveries and routes of thought that were previously not comprehended. This means it is not possible for an adult to even comprehend the necessary route to teach a kid what can be most relevant. All that is needed is resources provided, support available and the ability for natural human curiosity to flourish uninhibited.

Amen. Done. Get on it somehow.
Old 04-10-2013, 01:27 AM dio is offline  
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Vote McCain!
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have you considered that maybe someone did advise and encourage them but that the youth didn't give a fuck?

Yes I have considered that and I agree with you.... the not giving a fuck problem starts at home; if the parents dont give a fuck the child probably wont give a fuck either.

Quote:
There were a couple of posts here complaining about the role of high school staff encouraging students to attend college but to me they should play a very minor role in that. If they tell you about it once, that's OK. Two or three times is great. There is no need to repeat the same stuff 15 times. Seriously. If you can't figure that out by yourself you are likely too stupid to really benefit from college anyways...
Some people are just stupid and no amount of money can fix it. Our culture has this idea that if you just throw money at a problem, then it will eventually be fixed: kid not smart enough? buy them a college degree! problem solved!

Last edited by Vote McCain!; 04-10-2013 at 05:03 PM..
Old 04-10-2013, 04:56 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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Vote McCain!
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Guys let me just end this now so this banter can stop.

Human beings have the ability to naturally learn and teach themselves through the naturally developed instincts of curiosity. They do not need to be 'taught' so much as they simply need to be guided, and provided for, and maybe at specific times mentored on specific subjects when they ask.

Given this all you need to do is stick a kid in a social setting with access to all the resources he may need. Computers, internet, technology, art supplies, science supplies, whatever. With enough mentoring adults around to ask questions and maybe keep watch over certain machinery or things that could be dangerous without supervision of someone already trained, then if a kid expresses interest, they can learn that.

This is what needs to happened.

Why?

We are entering into a time now when there is TOO much information, and too much new information, and incredible value is to be had in completely novel discoveries and routes of thought that were previously not comprehended. This means it is not possible for an adult to even comprehend the necessary route to teach a kid what can be most relevant. All that is needed is resources provided, support available and the ability for natural human curiosity to flourish uninhibited.

Amen. Done. Get on it somehow.

I don't buy this for kids at young ages; they will want to fuck around and play too much if they aren't forced to put their heads down. When you are at the research level in a university, however, well what you have just described is, essentially, my work environment. It's similar to the way my class is run too (since it's a lab class).
Old 04-10-2013, 05:02 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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